Francis: Tire Fire

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think a lot of what Francis is saying isn't wrong. This team doesn't hate to lose enough.
I do struggle with Johnny. And I've been hard on him.
- I think he's the most skilled player on the team by far and has delivered a terrific season
- I think he does hate to lose and is uber competitive

But...
- I think he makes very poor decisions with little awareness about the game situation at times
- I don't think he's committing to the extent he can be to be a great pro. Thinking specifically about overall fitness and nutrition.
- He's not great away from the puck or defensively except for trying to take the puck away.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The point is that the skilled guys need some work on their compete level, including Johnny and Hamilton IMO. Tkachuk not so much - but he was born into it. IMO you want skilled guys with buy-in and leadership, otherwise you have Edmonton. Or Buffalo, arguably.

This. On winning teams the skilled players compete as hard without the puck as they do with it. They're dialled in whenever they're on the ice, in all zones. Can anyone who has watched this team for the last two years honestly say that describes Gaudreau, Monahan, and Hamilton?

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I was gonna disagree with the bullet point on Gaudreau and Monahan but that's not even what Francis said. He said that Gaudreau and Monahan need to start blocking shots, which was a pretty weird thing to suggest IMO. I disagree that these two should be sacrificing their body, we need them on the ice and scoring.

So the only thing I didn't agree with was the one thing he didn't actually say.

Francis has seemed much, MUCH more informed on the team over the past few seasons. He does have that loud, unfiltered personality that can rub people the wrong way, but the days of him being a laughable "tool" or "#######" easy to disregard is over, IMO.

I think for the longest time people just didn't like a person like Francis getting the attention for calling it like it is. He can still tend towards inflammatory, but I discover myself constantly agreeing with him.

Good points, Eric.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Funny how this team goes from being perceived as mentally strong under Hartley and becomes mentally weak under Gulutzan.

But yeah, let's blame this on the young guys not buying in.

####, this team is dumb.

Yeah no kidding. A confident, resilient team under Hartley.

Under GG all the sudden "fragile". Pretty easy to connect the dots here.

[Buck Murdock]

All the more reason to sign Tavares in the off-season

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

[B]If Hamonic is a terrific defender, I'm certainly not seeing on the ice and it's definitely not showing up in the underlying numbers. [/B]Brouwer had been on the decline for several seasons. Stajan keeps getting any ice time at all.

This team has more wasted cap space than any other team in the league.

I'll say it again, these guys are supposed to be providing leadership, because they aren't providing any other positive for this team. Our 4th line gets ice team when the team is trailing late in the 3rd period. Brouwer gets more powerplay time than Tkachuk or Hamilton.

If you think somebody like Gaudreau is a problem at all for this team, your evaluation is simply wrong. How many players contributed more to their team's offence this season? How many teams have as wide a gap between their 1st leading scorer and their 2nd?

This team is going to absolutely blow it. We make fun of the Oilers trading Hall and Eberle for nothing and it looks like the Flames are going to do something they'll regret this summer.

I don't know who you've been watching but Hamonic has been great for 2/3 of the season. If his numbers aren't great, look to his left.

Your point was that management brought in Hamonic, Brouwer and Stajan as unskilled guys with intangibles, which just isn't true. Brouwer has declined for exactly 2 seasons. He was thought of as a legit 2nd line guy when he was brought in. Stajan was a 50 point guy. Now, sure Brouwer hasn't performed (though last night he was one of the better forwards) and Stajan didn't for the first half (but he's good now). But that's a completely different point.

It's also complete BS to say that Tkachuk and Hamilton get less PP time than Brouwer. Brouwer was off the PP entirely until Tkachuk got hurt.

No one is talking about Johnny's value offensively and no one is talking about getting rid of him. Or Monahan. People are saying there's an aspect to their game that could be improved. Surely that's not some sort of off the wall take.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Yeah no kidding. A confident, resilient team under Hartley.

Under GG all the sudden "fragile". Pretty easy to connect the dots here.

A confident resilient team for one out of three years. Yeah the talent was less, but his last year they were anything but resilient. I wasn't surprised that they took a step back from the "miracle year" but they also had nowhere near the grit.

[dino7c]

JG is the LEAST of the Flames worries

[mikephoen]

I didn't read the article, so this is just based off the summary provided.

I think Johnny 100% hates to lose. I'm really surprised people think differently. He's as competitive as they come. Is he perfect defensively? No, and he never will be. His frame just doesn't allow it, but he still does his best and with the right coaching, his deficiencies can be mitigated.

Monahan and Hamilton are a little tougher. Neither seem to show much emotion on the ice, but it's hard to know what is going on in their heads. Monahan has been playiing hurt, and he also played hurt in the Hartley playoff year. We don't know how hurt he is, but we know it's affecting him, but he is still playing through it. To me, that shows a pretty high level of commitment.

Dougie has one of those personalities that rub some people the wrong way. He's a little like Phil Kessel in that regard. And similar to Kessel, no one will complain about it when the team is winning, and it will really grate on people when they're losing. Also similar to Kessel, he can be a game breaking player and just needs the right people around him.

Maybe it's rose colored glasses, but I still pin most of the problems on coaching. I want to see what this core looks like with a good, proven, coach behind the bench.

[sa226]

I think it lends a little credence to great coaches only being as good as their best players, and great players only being as good as their coaches.

Sutter/Iginla
Sutter/Kopitar, Doughty etc
Quenneville/Kane Toews
Babcock/Datsyuk, Zetterberg
Gulutzan.......

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think a lot of what Francis is saying isn't wrong. This team doesn't hate to lose enough.
I do struggle with Johnny. And I've been hard on him.
- I think he's the most skilled player on the team by far and has delivered a terrific season
- I think he does hate to lose and is uber competitive

But...
- I think he makes very poor decisions with little awareness about the game situation at times
- I don't think he's committing to the extent he can be to be a great pro. Thinking specifically about overall fitness and nutrition.
- He's not great away from the puck or defensively except for trying to take the puck away.

I'd agree with this. He's obviously an incredible talent but doesn't seem to have that last gear. The things about his fitness and diet are hopefully things he comes around on because it'll make for a hard decline in his late 20s otherwise.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I'd agree with this. He's obviously an incredible talent but doesn't seem to have that last gear. The things about his fitness and diet are hopefully things he comes around on because it'll make for a hard decline in his late 20s otherwise.

It indeed comes down to is he Phil Kessel (elite skilled player but not "the man") or is he an elite overall player that will lead a team to contender status.

Both are valuable. But which is he?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It indeed comes down to is he Phil Kessel (elite skilled player but not "the man") or is he an elite overall player that will lead a team to contender status.

Both are valuable. But which is he?

Which is Patrick Kane?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

I didn't read the article, so this is just based off the summary provided.

I think Johnny 100% hates to lose. I'm really surprised people think differently. He's as competitive as they come. Is he perfect defensively? No, and he never will be. His frame just doesn't allow it, but he still does his best and with the right coaching, his deficiencies can be mitigated.

Monahan and Hamilton are a little tougher. Neither seem to show much emotion on the ice, but it's hard to know what is going on in their heads. Monahan has been playiing hurt, and he also played hurt in the Hartley playoff year. We don't know how hurt he is, but we know it's affecting him, but he is still playing through it. To me, that shows a pretty high level of commitment.

Dougie has one of those personalities that rub some people the wrong way. He's a little like Phil Kessel in that regard. And similar to Kessel, no one will complain about it when the team is winning, and it will really grate on people when they're losing. Also similar to Kessel, he can be a game breaking player and just needs the right people around him.

Maybe it's rose colored glasses, but I still pin most of the problems on coaching. I want to see what this core looks like with a good, proven, coach behind the bench.

I was with you until about 4 games ago. I think their will to win got sapped.

With Dougie, I do think he gets a worse rap because he's so smooth, it doesn't look like he's putting effort in. But he is. Usually.

Johnny, I agree hates to lose. But it sometimes doesn't translate into doing good things - it translates into cheating sometimes.

Monahan - it's not about showing emotion for me. It's more about driving through to make a play or get in position. Tkachuk will skate through a wall to get to where he wants to be. Monahan has terrific skill and there;'s something to be said for having an even keel. But there's a bit of a lack of pushback sometimes.

I just think the team had chances to show more mettle in the last 4 games, win or lose, and they didn't show much.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't know who you've been watching but Hamonic has been great for 2/3 of the season. If his numbers aren't great, look to his left.

Your point was that management brought in Hamonic, Brouwer and Stajan as unskilled guys with intangibles, which just isn't true. Brouwer has declined for exactly 2 seasons. He was thought of as a legit 2nd line guy when he was brought in. Stajan was a 50 point guy. Now, sure Brouwer hasn't performed (though last night he was one of the better forwards) and Stajan didn't for the first half (but he's good now). But that's a completely different point.

It's also complete BS to say that Tkachuk and Hamilton get less PP time than Brouwer. Brouwer was off the PP entirely until Tkachuk got hurt.

No one is talking about Johnny's value offensively and no one is talking about getting rid of him. Or Monahan. People are saying there's an aspect to their game that could be improved. Surely that's not some sort of off the wall take.

I never said that somebody like Browuer was brought in just for his intangibles, bit it's pretty clear that his perception of being a tough guy you go to war with in the playoffs completely blinded management's evaluation of his worth. So when this guy comes to our team and plays like a 4th liner, wasting cap space where we could have spent elsewhere, and doesn't provide leadership, doesn't stand up for his teammates, and shows more emotion on Twitter than he does on the ice, I'm going to question somebody calling out the young players on this team.

And the thing about Hamonic, his underlying numbers are almost identical to his last couple years with the Islanders (aka bad). I'll agree 100% that Brodie has been awful this season, but they tanked even further to Hamonic's level after they became a regular pair. Brodie's numbers weren't great last year either, but they are far worse this season with Hamonic.

So how is all this Gaudreau's fault? Why are we falling into the same trap Edmonton did? How can you guys actually fall for this?

It's like people think because he's a small guy, he doesn't care enough or doesn't show enough emotion. This is a guy that was doing everything asked of him, wore his heart on his sleeve in the playoffs in 2015 and at the World Cup last year.

[Monahan For Mayor]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Funny how this team goes from being perceived as mentally strong under Hartley and becomes mentally weak under Gulutzan.

But yeah, let's blame this on the young guys not buying in.

####, this team is dumb.

It's the ripple effect. Gulutzan is cool as a cucumber. Never really showed emotion until his job was on the line. Our team took on much of the same. Hartley hated losing and demanded effort. In return the players put in the effort, and seemed to never give up on games.

We need to bring in a coach known as a leader and hard ass. Sick of watching this team coast. I miss watching Hartley hockey. Always entertaining and always pushing for a win.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Which is Patrick Kane?

Good question.
Early in his career I would have said he is more like Phil, but I think that was wrong. I think he is an elite offensive player who actually is also tremendously committed and a better overall player than people give him credit for.
If Johnny can be Kane that would be tremendous.
Part of the problem though is that Sean isn't like Toews.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Yeah no kidding. A confident, resilient team under Hartley.

Under GG all the sudden "fragile". Pretty easy to connect the dots here.

If the rumours are true that Hartley was fired because some of the young players thought he was too hard on them, then it was pretty much writing a ticket to let inmates run the asylum.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So how is all this Gaudreau's fault? r.

Who is saying that?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Good question.
Early in his career I would have said he is more like Phil, but I think that was wrong. I think he is an elite offensive player who actually is also tremendously committed and a better overall player than people give him credit for.
If Johnny can be Kane that would be tremendous.
Part of the problem though is that Sean isn't like Toews.

Bennett was supposed to be a more skilled Toews.