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Old 03-12-2018, 10:18 AM   #1
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Ok, I thought I would open the floor for discussion, maybe this post can go into another topic. I would be fine with this.

But I think the question has to be asked, about what the role of coaching is in a modern day big money professional league like the NHL

I think that there's a bit of romanticism attached to what people think coaches do in the NHL. A over reliance based on sports movies where Coaches stand up and make grandiose speeches appealing to the players pride, and sense of team, and the small town he came from. Maybe playing for the memory of an injured team mated or a dead relative

"Whatever you do, if you can win one for the Gipper".

We used to hear terms like "Players Coach", or "Authoritarian" or "Systems Coach". The Roger Neilson breaking down of film, Iron Mike beating down players to get the best efforts out of them, the Badger Bob's or Terry Crisps.

Do these terms even exist anymore?

Where does this debate come from, well obviously from the massive calls for GG to be shown the door, right now this fracking instant. The insistence that everything that vexes the Flames is due to the coaches themselves.

I want to be clear, I do firmly believe that GG is probably going to be gone at the end of this season. However I do believe that the problem with the Flames, and in fact the problem plaguing a lot of teams is more then systematic in nature. We're not alone as a fanbase when it comes to that coach screwing things up argument.

I also think that all to often we go back to the argument that you can't fire 20 players, but you can really fire a coach.

But the game has shifted in the last several years to one where the power is really held by the players.

It used to be that a player could be demoted, benched, traded to the worst team in the worse city in the league, or even set adrift and not signed. But the fact is that the key players the guys that drive your franchises have none of those threats hanging over their head.

You can't demote a star player anymore, if you had a player without a NMC and try to demote him, its likely that he's rewarded by being snapped up by another team. You can bench them, but do they really care? They're being paid, and the ability for coaches to fine players for playing lazy or giving the puck away is gone. In a long season, a night in the press box is probably appreciated. Traded to the worst team in the league? Not likely the players and the agents pretty well hold the cards, and even if you could, they still get paid.

Frankly these players aren't the farm boys who were hardened by brutal outdoor games in 30 below weather. The experience of riding the iron lung buses on long road trips across the prairies that built a sense of history. The brutal nature of the minor league systems designed to be hard.

Instead players that are identified from an early age are pampered and taken care of, they're lavishly coached and developed. There's really not more elite players getting time off from the game to go and play baseball or football, and really develop a yearning to play hockey, they're made to learn and play systems through the enforcement of muscle memory, and tactical learning.

Meanwhile the coaches are rarely the same ex players that they used to be. Instead these are educated men who are forced to learn the systems and theories of the game. They can design a power play or a penalty kill, or a breakout like a nuclear sub technician can draw a reactor on a napkin.

So to me its no surprise that for players, the leaders the guys like a Crosby for example are natural and not built leaders. Sports isn't developing leadership anymore by putting them with coaches that appeal to the emotional side of the game, Sports isn't about a squared peg in a round hole. Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard those guys that show up in dictionaries under pictures of perseverance and leadership and suffering for their game and their team are rare.

Instead we've got lavishly paid and trained very athletic guys who rarely step out of the box that they've been trained to occupy, they rarely take chances, they rarely really inspire anymore.

the dressing rooms are too civilized.

The idea of a leader or a group of leaders, charging from the front, and kicking asses from the back has now been replaced by the term chemistry, everyone pulling in the same direction like oarsmen on a boat. A harsh comment by a player against his team is now considered to be wrong and throwing his team under the bus. A player calling out his team mates in the dressing room is probably greeted by apathy, because his pay is guaranteed, and he has control of his ultimate fate in every single way.

Its the same with a coach. A inspirational speech once might get results similar to chucking a stick into the crowd. But the effect is going to wear all too soon, and then just ignored as "That same old bullspit" by the players the next time its pulled out.

So where does that leave us. A league where the players have nothing to lose, and are actually doing their jobs by playing a system where you don't take chances and stay in the box.

Where does it leave us, when the term chemistry is bigger then leadership, and following the game plan matters more then charging ahead and doing whatever it takes and living with the consequences?

As much as we want to say this is on the coach, when the players come out flat. This is the coach that the team wanted, a systems guy with new ideas who can draw a nuclear power plant on a napkin. After the experience of Bob Hartley the players wanted someone low key and since they have the power, that's what they've got now.

There is a failure on this team and it goes beyond coaching. On paper this team should be solid, but there is a chemistry issue. personal wise, this team should be doing way better, but there's a disturbing lack of give a crap at the start of every game.

And as much as we believe this is on the coach, who could yell and scream and extort as much as we want. The players in that dressing room have the power. They have security and predictability and the power.

And they don't have leadership because this team isn't designed to have it.

If you fire this coach and bring in someone new next year, you're likely to get the same result. Because the coaches are all approaching the game the same way. The authoritarian coaches might get you half a season now, before the team tunes him out, because those authoritarian coaches have been denied the tools that made them effective.

If the coach goes, there has to be a real look at how this team is built, because the chemistry isn't there, and there's literally no leadership.

Then the question is, is there a natural leader in this dressing room, is there a natural leader that's out there that the Flames can pick up from a team that's not going to let that asset go.

I firmly believe that Gully is a good coach in the right situation, in a situation where there's development and teaching, he's going to be a superstar. But in a situation where the power lies with the players, he's got no tools.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:35 AM   #2
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I have no doubt that the players are a bigger problem than GG, the results even show it. We’re not winning games. But, it’s easier to fire 1 person (and staff) than 23 players for not playing up to par.

Hockey is much like a normal business. The GM is the boss and has his manager (the coach) supervise a group of people to make sure we get the results we want. Sometimes you can demote/not sign/put on waivers/trade players, but for the most part you can’t freely do that, especially to hockey players with long term contracts and NMC’s/NTC’s.

Once again, it’s back on the coach. I wish GG the best, but his system just simply doesn’t bode well for this squad. I truly think he could find a job elsewhere, but he and the players are not on the same page.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:41 AM   #3
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This thread will go back and forth, both sides will attempt to completely dismiss the other side with their theory, when the reality is the truth doesn't lie in the middle but somewhere in between.

Yes, some players need to be better or aren't as good as we thought, but yes there is a lot being left on the table with what we have, not due to lack of finish but due to our rigid, predictable system that allows the other team to telegraph our tendencies, along with being allowed to catch up and get into defensive position.

Lots of shots with very few goals? Yep, it's clear why. But yes, we also need a sniper, as well. It's not one or the other.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:44 AM   #4
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This post from CubeInmate in another thread is a pretty good analogy of what I feel I'm watching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cube Inmate View Post
The strong "systems" coaching is the antithesis of "autonomy."

There are two opposite approaches to managing for results: In one approach, you manage the processes so carefully that you could plug a monkey into the job and still get the results you need. That's the "auto assembly line" model. In the opposite, you focus on getting the best employees and *removing* process as much as possible. That's the "tech startup" model.

Those are the extremes; you need a balance. But from what I've heard of GG's coaching, and what I've seen on the ice, it's closer to the assembly line model. There's only one "right" way to do things, and if you don't do it that way you'll get to practice it again until you do. No autonomy. No purpose -- if all they're expected to do is flawlessly execute a flawed system, there's not much you can do ($$$) to make them feel purpose.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:51 AM   #5
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This team has no shortage of leaders. Guys like Giordano, Bennett, Tkachuk, Backlund and yes, Gaudreau, are guys that anyone on any team would go to war for. I've always found it strange that Monahan and Brouwer wear letters considering I doubt Monahan and Brouwer would go to war for Monahan and Brouwer, but I digress.

I don't need Gulutzan to be a rah rah coach. I need him to impact games and make adjustments. Joel Quennville is one of my favorite coaches and while I don't think he's the best coach in the world, he is a guy who impacts games, even right now while the Blackhawks have fallen behind the Flames due to a lack of talent. Us Fans are pretty sensitive to momentum in games, and you can't fake that. The Flames can come out of a game like last night's Islanders affair having dominated on paper yet never having the momentum in their favour. That's what frustrates people about the coach.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:01 AM   #6
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A good coach needs to be a good leader. He should set the tone. He should give the team an identity and a reason to get up for games.
Now weather you do it by the way of inspirational speeches, hard ass discipline, video reviews or just letting your guys play "their" game is up for debate.
But its clear that whatever GG does is simply not working. Unless these are acceptable results.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:12 AM   #7
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If you think coaching and team identity are not important, look at Vegas.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:29 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
If you think coaching and team identity are not important, look at Vegas.
Precisely. And again, I think this is where we fail.

The quality of the players is a huge chunk of the equation, but a team has to perform greater than simply the sum of its parts.

This is sports, performing at that next level is what differentiates the good from the great.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
If you think coaching and team identity are not important, look at Vegas.
So you are attributing Vegas' success primarily to coaching?
This seems like an over simplistic explanation
An easy team to point to as part of the narrative, but light on tangible analysis.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:03 PM   #10
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I think that some of the success that vegas is having this year is a little based on pride, "hey boys, your prior teams did not want you and traded you here or exposed you in the draft", so it is us against the world

as for coaching at the nhl level, I guess it is really hard to know what to think unless you are in the room; however, my thought is that by the tiem these players get to the NHL, they have played and practiced 1,000's of hours and they should know how to prepare and be ready.

to me the coach provides a basic playing structure/system, along with some in game adjustments. I would think a good coach would have to adjust his system to fit the players along with making in game adjustments.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
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I think that some of the success that vegas is having this year is a little based on pride, "hey boys, your prior teams did not want you and traded you here or exposed you in the draft", so it is us against the world

as for coaching at the nhl level, I guess it is really hard to know what to think unless you are in the room; however, my thought is that by the tiem these players get to the NHL, they have played and practiced 1,000's of hours and they should know how to prepare and be ready.

to me the coach provides a basic playing structure/system, along with some in game adjustments. I would think a good coach would have to adjust his system to fit the players along with making in game adjustments.
And who do you think is banging that message loud and clear constantly?
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northendzone View Post
I think that some of the success that vegas is having this year is a little based on pride, "hey boys, your prior teams did not want you and traded you here or exposed you in the draft", so it is us against the world

as for coaching at the nhl level, I guess it is really hard to know what to think unless you are in the room; however, my thought is that by the tiem these players get to the NHL, they have played and practiced 1,000's of hours and they should know how to prepare and be ready.

to me the coach provides a basic playing structure/system, along with some in game adjustments. I would think a good coach would have to adjust his system to fit the players along with making in game adjustments.
There is no doubt but credit the coaching staff for harnessing that and getting the message through. It's pretty obvious the message early on was that they were going to prove their former teams and other detractors wrong and that typical expansion results would not be acceptable. None of this playing a heavy defense system to slow down the game and bring the opposition to their level. They decided to use their team speed and take it to the opposition and force them to try and slow them down. They also play a style that extracts as much talent as possible from their roster. No square pegs in round holes as it's more putting players in the best place for them to succeed. Next season will be different of course as there will be high expectations and pride will factor less so nobody will be surprised if they take a step or two back but that coaching staff hit it out of the park this season.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
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So you are attributing Vegas' success primarily to coaching?
This seems like an over simplistic explanation
An easy team to point to as part of the narrative, but light on tangible analysis.
I do, mostly because we have evidence of most of those individual players before they came to Vegas. Many of them are having career seasons.

I also know the methods of Gallant pretty well. He gets the team to understand the basics of where to be and how to work as a unit, but he also encourages players to use their unique skill sets as the situations present themselves.

He's not a flawless coach, but he's good at getting the most out of a roster. See 2 years ago with a Panthers team that had over 100 points, yet most of the key players in other situations after that team have not fared as well (Kulikov, Gudbranson, Montoya, Pirri, Quinton Howden; Jokinen and Jagr to a lesser extent because they just got old)

I also know that under Hartley's extremely flawed system, this team overperformed, despite shakey goaltending, and despite getting routinely out chanced/out shot. This team is the exact opposite: Underperforming despite getting solid goaltending, and routinely out chancing the opposition.

There needs to be a balance between motivation and systems. Glen doesn't seem to have the motivation part figured out, despite being a player's coach...the same thing that Gallant technically is.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
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And who do you think is banging that message loud and clear constantly?
All of them, including Gallant.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:20 PM   #15
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Cali I have to give you credit for Gallant. You had been a supporter of his for a while and I just didn't see it but now I understand.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
So you are attributing Vegas' success primarily to coaching?
This seems like an over simplistic explanation
An easy team to point to as part of the narrative, but light on tangible analysis.
Would you consider it more or less of an oversimplification than the "good coach, bad luck" argument offered up to defend Gulutzan?

"It takes time to implement a new system" was the excuse offered to forgive Gulutzan's failures last year. Funny how Gallant had no such issues.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:23 PM   #17
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^ agree with the comments on rallying Vegas. The ‘us against the world’ mentality, or ‘chip on the shoulder’ is something the team does not seems to generally have

Gulutzan reportedly is asking the team how they are going to start.

Admittedly I’m not at the practice, but I would hope that isn’t it and there is a lot of ‘people are saying we are now out of it’, or ‘people say you can’t even beat the lowly oilers, you are a mockery in the battle of Alberta’ or ‘people say you guys can’t keep the first 3 pucks out of the net half the time’.

They have played like a bad team that should feel bad and it is part of the coach’s job to make sure they feel bad enough not to do it again.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:26 PM   #18
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I'm fairly certain GG wouldn't have taken Vegas as far as they are now.

For crying out loud, Vegas doesn't even have L-R dmen pairs. How can you even possibly succeed without even that?
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:34 PM   #19
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With only a few point separating us between being currently seen successful and not can easily attributed to the coaching decisions brought by this current group of assistants and head coaches. How long did it take to get Hamilton on the first pairing on the PP? Why is Brouwer used in such strange situations (OT taking the faceoff after losing 2 in a row). Why hasnt Brodie been attempted on his other side ever? Why was Bennett not on the first line after a couple of good games, instead we put a castoff brought in that has not had any time to understand the system employed.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
So you are attributing Vegas' success primarily to coaching?
This seems like an over simplistic explanation
An easy team to point to as part of the narrative, but light on tangible analysis.
Speed of play, system, motivation, etc can all surely be attributed to being influenced by the coach. Depth at the bottom of the roster obviously due to the work of the the GM

You don’t play that well together as a team without good coaching.

Face it, the Flames under Gully are like under Brent Sutter. They don’t appear to know with certainty where their teammates are going to be, so they take a look, while the other team gets in position.

Detroit used to be really good at that. Play without the puck. Putting the puck where the player is supposed to be and there was onus on the player to be there.

There is no way to play a fast game that is successful without good coaching.
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