The Democratic Presidential Nomination 2020

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Yes. The stakes are too damn high.

Are the stakes really higher than any other Republican President? I think a President Cruz would have been much more right wing, even though he is of course smarter than Trump. Republicans always have and always will stack everything in their favor. Their argument is simply, 'less government'.


I think people are fascinated and bamboozled by Trump, which is what the Republicans want. It's obviously working because the DNC and the media got behind a guy with dementia.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Are the stakes really higher than any other Republican President?

Yes! Has everyone forgot the previous 4 years?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Yes! Has everyone forgot the previous 4 years?

Is it that different from Bush's 8 years?
Or Republicans obstructing both Presidents Clinton and Obama?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The ACA was going to be scrapped anyways, regardless of the crisis. The plan was to go back the private healthcare.
However, This little medicare for all for coronavirus patients experiement might reshape the debate going forward.

Why doesn't Biden just go with it? Why does he have to bash single payer?

which debate? Trump killing ACA vs Biden not?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

which debate? Trump killing ACA vs Biden not?

The debate of what healthcare will look like after this crisis.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The debate of what healthcare will look like after this crisis.

Trump will want to still kill ACA and Biden will not. I don't see much of a debate there.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

It seems to be that the conservatives are happy to embrace those in their party who are further to the right because that’s what they want the party to be. Democrats are terrified of embracing those further to the left in their party because they in no way actually want those things. There is a right wing party and a centrist party in the US and people get pissy when the left wonders why they’re expected to support the people who are “basically sort of closest” to what they believe.

One party embraces their ideals, the other just wants watered down versions of the other party’s goals. Yeah it’s a real shocker that progressives aren’t exactly gung ho about this.

I think the leadership of both parties are beholden to the status quo to maintain their power. They are beholden to giant corporate interests to maintain their power and money, so that is ultimately who they serve.


The Democrats are actually more hypocritical about it, pretending to care about people. The Republicans outwardly act like this.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Trump will want to still kill ACA and Biden will not. I don't see much of a debate there.

ACA isn't the only solution. Biden shouldn't keep ACA either. He should support single payer. That should be the debate.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

ACA isn't the only solution. Biden shouldn't keep ACA either. He should support single payer. That should be the debate.

you think that is the hill he should die on, at this time?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

you think that is the hill he should die on, at this time?

Absolutely. This crisis shows that. Heck even Trump is being pushed left by reimbursing hospitals.


The popular opinion has been that, while Bernie takes progressive ideas further than could ever practicably be instated, even moderate voters like that he pushed the conversation left. If we hear a new idea enough, it becomes a mainstream idea and stops seeming like a radical shift. Sure, every other country in the free world already has these "radical" ideas like paid sick leave and paid maternity leave and zero bankruptcies caused by medical bills.


But Biden rejects all of this, which is the point rubecube is making above. Even if Biden embraced something, progressives could get behind him, but he's not. Trump is going to outflank him on the left in November. Trump is going to promise some sort of healthcare (even if he's not really). He's going to hint at some progressive policies. And of course Trump has blue-collar workers in his pocket.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

It seems to be that the conservatives are happy to embrace those in their party who are further to the right because that’s what they want the party to be. Democrats are terrified of embracing those further to the left in their party because they in no way actually want those things. There is a right wing party and a centrist party in the US and people get pissy when the left wonders why they’re expected to support the people who are “basically sort of closest” to what they believe.

One party embraces their ideals, the other just wants watered down versions of the other party’s goals. Yeah it’s a real shocker that progressives aren’t exactly gung ho about this.

Unless you have a strategy to overthrow the electoral college, it is a two party system. But even the countries that don't have the electoral college are generally two party systems. Canada hasn't given the NDP a chance to govern, never has and probably never will. That the progressive wing is basically capped at 30% is just reality, I don't know how they get over the hump, but until they do the fear of avoiding the worst is just how it is. But Bernie didn't lose because of the DNC, he lost because 70% of the party isn't progressive. We always hear that "the next generation" will be the one to swing more left, but then people grow up, they just become more moderate and it remains the same cycle.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think the leadership of both parties are beholden to the status quo to maintain their power. They are beholden to giant corporate interests to maintain their power and money, so that is ultimately who they serve.

The Democrats are actually more hypocritical about it, pretending to care about people. The Republicans outwardly act like this.

None of the biggest problems facing America are really solve-able as long as big money has the final say in things, as most of it's biggest problems were set up by big money for their own benefit in the first place.

[DuffMan]

M4A = socialism, you don't think Trump would absolutely thrive on that? I could be his campaign manager in that scenario. Trump would absolutely love for Biden to push for M4A, and Biden knows it.

how would moderates go?

I think their priorities should be winning this election, and then regroup and go for M4A in 2024

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

M4A = socialism, you don't think Trump would absolutely thrive on that? I could be his campaign manager in that scenario. Trump would absolutely love for Biden to push for M4A, and Biden knows it.

how would moderates go?

I think moderates support some sort of M4A if argued correctly. Trump would lose here. The thing about Bernie is, he says M4A. What does that mean? What does it cover? Is he trying to turn the US into Denmark?

Even in Canada, M4A is at best 50%. We get doctors, procedures and hospitals covered. We still need private healthcare for eyes, teeth, body, drugs etc...


Biden could say, "Single payer is an option but it has to start really small, like just medical bills for certain things." and go from there. But he just dismisses it, I think that's a missed opportunity.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think moderates support some sort of M4A if argued correctly. Trump would lose here. The thing about Bernie is, he says M4A. What does that mean? What does it cover? Is he trying to turn the US into Denmark?

Even in Canada, M4A is at best 50%. We get doctors, procedures and hospitals covered. We still need private healthcare for eyes, teeth, body, drugs etc...

the people that are going to decide the vote, the middle group, is the key, and when you say M4A argued correctly vs OMG socialism, I just don't think now is the time.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Unless you have a strategy to overthrow the electoral college, it is a two party system. But even the countries that don't have the electoral college are generally two party systems. Canada hasn't given the NDP a chance to govern, never has and probably never will.

This is categorically wrong if you look at most European countries besides the UK. It's FPtP that creates two-party systems.

That the progressive wing is basically capped at 30% is just reality, I don't know how they get over the hump, but until they do the fear of avoiding the worst is just how it is. But Bernie didn't lose because of the DNC, he lost because 70% of the party isn't progressive. We always hear that "the next generation" will be the one to swing more left, but then people grow up, they just become more moderate and it remains the same cycle.

This ignores that Obama was considered the "progressive candidate" in 2008, but okay.

Registered Democrats have been on the decline for years. The reason the party isn't swinging more progressive is because progressives are leaving the party. Many progressives have realized that the party is a waste of time and their best chances of affecting change are through other avenues.

[Flash Walken]

The path to victory for Biden is with a black southern female running mate to counter the now outrageous levels of voter suppression and apathetic liberal voters.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is categorically wrong if you look at most European countries besides the UK. It's FPtP that creates two-party systems.



This ignores that Obama was considered the "progressive candidate" in 2008, but okay.

Registered Democrats have been on the decline for years. The reason the party isn't swinging more progressive is because progressives are leaving the party. Many progressives have realized that the party is a waste of time and their best chances of affecting change are through other avenues.

Obama was viewed as the progressive candidate in 2008 for 3 reasons:

1) He was Black
2) He was relatively young
3) He wasn't a 'DC Insider' or 'establishment' democrat

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is categorically wrong if you look at most European countries besides the UK. It's FPtP that creates two-party systems.



This ignores that Obama was considered the "progressive candidate" in 2008, but okay.

Registered Democrats have been on the decline for years. The reason the party isn't swinging more progressive is because progressives are leaving the party. Many progressives have realized that the party is a waste of time and their best chances of affecting change are through other avenues.

Now maybe I'm blind, but I'm pretty sure Obama is black and that's another 30% of the Dem base, which he carried. The reason Bernie lost these two elections is because he got crushed with this voting block. It's not even like he lost by a little, he got destroyed with black voters. He was never getting the centrist block, so when he couldn't get the black voter block it was curtains for him. Until the progressives can find a candidate who appeals to that block, they are stuck in neutral. Some of Bernie's staff/surrogate choices this time didn't exactly encourage black voters to come to him (and dismissing South Carolina again was the death blow),

Perhaps the real secret to a progressive winning is having Hillary run again in the next cycle. Or maybe Chelsea. Even with Obama not being really progressive in the end, he was, as you say, the "progressive candidate", and maybe it's just having a Clinton to hate that is the path for progressives. As for leaving the party, we all know they have nowhere to go so it's a kind of "leaving, but still gonna vote for you" situation. Even with declining numbers, Dems did sort of dominate the 2018 elections. There's still more than enough people who will vote Dem even if progressives flee.

[GirlySports]

So is the conclusion that blacks really aren't progressive and just voted for Obama because he's black? You'd think Bernie's policies would help them most.