So by these standards you need to be a really good goalie and on a really good team. If Luongo was on the Redwings and Lundquist was a Penguin, they’d be locks for HOF.
If there was ever a lock in the modern era, it's probably Lundqvist. He has a Vezina, was a runner-up four other times, and is much more likeable than Barrasso.
The arguments against having Vernon in the HHOF are pretty sound:
Minimal accolades. Vernon was never a Vezina runner-up. 14 other goalies received AS votes in the one season that he was a 2nd team AS, including Greg Millen who was 3rd in voting (and awful). The Conn Smythe is nice, but that's the only meaningful award that he has.
It was easy to stand-out in a 21 team league. Consistently being a top 4-10 goalie isn't that impressive when you're only competing against 15-20 other starting goalies.
His best seasons were on some of the best rosters of all-time - late 80s Flames and mid-90s Red Wings. It's hard to separate the player from the team, but lets be real...any other good or above average goalie could have gotten Vernon's results with five or more HHOF-caliber players in front of them.
His peak wasn't long enough. Tim Thomas' incredible three year run isn't long enough to get him into the HHOF and Thomas' three best seasons are better than Vernon's three best seasons.
Then you add in Vernon's streakiness and tendency for soft goals, which deservedly hurts his reputation.
Because the Wings were a phenomenal team, who then proceeded to win another cup without him. His Connie helps obviously. As for who he beat with Calgary, that's really irrelevant. It's not like he was the one who scored on Roy (BTW, best PO goalie? Ken Dryden says hi).
Dryden was spectacular on precisely one of his Cup winning teams. His first one. The Bruins were supposed to roll everyone that year. 5 of his 6 Cups were on ridiculously stacked teams.
Roy played on pedestrian teams for his first two Conn Smythes. Then won his third when he went to Colorado. Still the only guy with 3 Smythes. Dryden had one.
I think the standard and bar is more correct for goalies then skaters. There are far too many "pretty good" players in the HHOF. Clark Gillies, Kevin Lowe, Bernie Federko?
Good players.
Very good players.
Hall of Fame? Nope.
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Minimal accolades. Vernon was never a Vezina runner-up. 14 other goalies received AS votes in the one season that he was a 2nd team AS, including Greg Millen who was 3rd in voting (and awful). The Conn Smythe is nice, but that's the only meaningful award that he has.
I think the standard and bar is more correct for goalies then skaters. There are far too many "pretty good" players in the HHOF. Clark Gillies, Kevin Lowe, Bernie Federko?
Good players.
Very good players.
Hall of Fame? Nope.
289 players have been inducted into the Hhof.
77 defencemen = 26%
36 goalies = 12 %
If we use a 23 player roster as standard, goalies are a little over represented and defencemen are slightly under represented.
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Part of the problem might be how incredibly good Roy/Brodeur/Hasek were in that generation. But that's kind of silly, because it's not like they looked at it that way for guys compared to Gretz/Lemieux.
The gap from those big 3 to DUI Belfour(and Fuhr) is bigger than the gap from Belfour to the next group.
Hextall - first goalie to shoot a goal...and he did it twice. Leader in PIM. Vezina and Conn Smythe in his rookie year. I think those unique accomplishments are worthy of a spot.
Richter has a cup, World Cup gold and MVP, and Olympic silver. In contention for best US goalie ever (w/ Quick, R Miller, T Thomas), which is a silly consideration, but often used with skaters. He's borderline IMO.
Cujo doesn't really do it for me...I think he should be one of the best goalies outside the hall of fame.
Others have made good Vernon arguments; I'm on the fence for him. Other than Roy, has anyone started cup wins for different teams in the modern era?
Osgood is a tough one for me. He's in the transitional period pre/post cap era with guys like:
Vokoun/Nabokov/Khabibulin/Kolzig/Theodore/Giguere...I'm not sure Osgood is distinguished than any of these guys, and I'm not sure any of them are HOFers...
Kipper is in the same age group as those guys (all born 1970-76), but 90% of his career was with the next generation, beginning with Luongo (1979).
Luongo/Lundqvist/MAF/Price/Quick
~~~Kipper/T Thomas
R Miller/Crawford/Rinne/Bobrovsky
Holtby/Rask/Craig Anderson/Cam Ward/Halak/etc
Kipper probably has the best 8 year run out of this whole era
Thomas is a 2x Vezina winner with a cup. And a random TIL factoid: he was the starter for the 1998 Finnish league championship team that also had Olli Jokinen, Kimmo Timonen, Brian Rafalski, Hagman, both Ruutus, and even a few games from goalie Nik Backstrom.
I can see arguments against each of the top 5-7 I have listed. I think Cujo and Ryan Miller are kinda similar (longevity; always good, rarely great), as are Crawford and Osgood (both won with teams that had already won cups with good, but not spectacular goaltending).
If you count times in the Finals as a both a starter and a backup, you'd also have Moog, Osgood, and Fleury.
Moog went to two Finals as a starter (1983 and 1990) and 4 as a backup (84, 85, 87, and 88). Osgood was Vernon's backup in 1995 and 1997, and the starter in 1998, 2008, and 2009. Fleury was the starter in 2008 and 2009 for the Pens, and the backup in 2016 and 2017, then starter again for Vegas in 2018.
2017 was a weird one for Fleury because he actually started and won more playoff games than Murray, but he didn't play at all in the Final round. Weirdly, the same thing could happen this season if Vegas stays with Lehner the rest of the way.
I almost corrected you on 1990, that it was Ranford, only to stop myself that Moog was a Bruin.
Dryden was spectacular on precisely one of his Cup winning teams. His first one. The Bruins were supposed to roll everyone that year. 5 of his 6 Cups were on ridiculously stacked teams.
Roy played on pedestrian teams for his first two Conn Smythes. Then won his third when he went to Colorado. Still the only guy with 3 Smythes. Dryden had one.
Dryden only played 7 seasons, and won 6 cups (TBF 8 POs). Won his Conn Smyth before he won his Calder. And his numbers were better in POs from 75-78 than his Conn Smythe year.
Hextall - first goalie to shoot a goal...and he did it twice. Leader in PIM. Vezina and Conn Smythe in his rookie year. I think those unique accomplishments are worthy of a spot.
I am a Flyers fan and loved when Hextall was doing his crap for about 4 years, but his numbers in no way qualify him for the HOF. He had some outstanding seasons followed by some mediocre ones, so I would pass on the HOF.
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Sure.....players that are very high on personal accolades (Iginla) but not much playoff success get in.
Why can't players that have tremendous playoff success (Vernon, MAF) but not a lot of personal accolades get in?
Vernon is 8th ALL TIME in playoff wins. MAF is 3rd.
Vernon has been to the finals 4 times since 1980. Only Roy, Brodeur, Smith, and Fuhr can match that.
However, when I think of great goalies I do not think of Mike Vernon.
I don't know. It is tough.
It is tough, but there is a distinction between being merely good enough and legitimately good. Vernon went to the finals four times because he had a lot of help from his incredible teams, not because he single-handedly put a middling team on his back and willed them into the finals like Kipper did or like Price is doing right now.
1991 first round game seven and Vernon allows these two long distance softies from Tikkanen (Edm's first goal and the OT winner) to shift the momentum and lose the game/series for the Flames.
Don't forget about MAF's meltdowns in the early 10s and 2016.
If the HHOF is reserved for the most elite goalies to play the game, players like Vernon, MAF, and Osgood just don't have enough individual success in the regular season or playoffs to offset their meltdown moments, short peaks, and/or lack of elite peak.
It is tough, but there is a distinction between being merely good enough and legitimately good. Vernon went to the finals four times because he had a lot of help from his incredible teams, not because he single-handedly put a middling team on his back and willed them into the finals like Kipper did or like Price is doing right now.
1991 first round game seven and Vernon allows these two long distance softies from Tikkanen (Edm's first goal and the OT winner) to shift the momentum and lose the game/series for the Flames.
Don't forget about MAF's meltdowns in the early 10s and 2016.
If the HHOF is reserved for the most elite goalies to play the game, players like Vernon, MAF, and Osgood just don't have enough individual success in the regular season or playoffs to offset their meltdown moments, short peaks, and/or lack of elite peak.
Crazy game. I like how Beukeboom elbowing Roberts in the face right in front of the ref during the 5th goal celebration didn't warrant a penalty.
Lots of softies there, but a few beautiful saves, too.
To the bolded point, HHOF isn't reserved for the most elite skaters, so it's silly to have a higher standard for goalies.
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Crazy game. I like how Beukeboom elbowing Roberts in the face right in front of the ref during the 5th goal celebration didn't warrant a penalty.
Lots of softies there, but a few beautiful saves, too.
To the bolded point, HHOF isn't reserved for the most elite skaters, so it's silly to have a higher standard for goalies.
Is it though? In a 31 team league, there are 403+ forwards, 217+ defensemen, and 62+ goalies.
Regardless of the HHOF loosening criteria for forwards and defensemen over time, it make sense to keep tight restrictions for goalies given the much, much smaller talent pool.
Last year there were 30 goalies that played more than half the season (35+ games). The year that Vernon was a Vezina runner-up, there were only 20 goalies that played more than half the season (40+ games).
Even though a player like Andreychuk is a very, very questionable HHOF induction, it certainly carries more clout and meaningfulness that he was the 3rd best LW in the game (AS voting) out of 160+ LWers that played in his best season than Vernon being the second best goalie out of 20 starting goalies in his best season.
HHOF has clearly established a low bar for skaters. I’d say let them all in.
At this point Kevin Lowe would like to remind you that he believes there is one guy working in the game with more Stanley Cups than he has and that he knows a thing or two about winning if that is ever a concern.
I honestly believe if Osgood had a cool helmet he’d have been more popular. The lack of popularity sure has nothing to do with his numbers. His playoff numbers are nuts.
His whole appearance was white bread level exciting.
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