Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I don't really get why it's relevant.

If Catholic schools negligent practices led to the death of indigenous kids, we absolutely should talk about it.

If Catholic schools did the same to other kids, we should talk about that too, and give those issues their own space. They should not be used as whataboutism to dismiss any other wrongdoings.

Who’s dismissing wrongdoings? I know this is a difficult subject, but everyone here is engaging in it with good faith.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Not to absolve the government, but wasn’t the church largely informing the government? It seems to be simplifying the church’s role when the church was the defacto moral compass.

I disagree. This was a direct plan by the Canadian government to destroy the indigenous nations and assimilate their people. I see this as the government using an inherently intolerant religious organization to accomplish their goals. The Canadian government wanted these people gone, and handed them over to the church to accomplish that goal.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree. This was a direct plan by the Canadian government to destroy the indigenous nations and assimilate their people. I see this as the government using an inherently intolerant religious organization to accomplish their goals. The Canadian government wanted these people gone, and handed them over to the church to accomplish that goal.

Wait wait wait. You're saying a bunch of church going devoted Christian/Catholic men formed their own indoctrination strategy and made the creators of indoctrination do their bidding? Okay.

[oldschoolcalgary]

I've refrained from posting on this, frankly, because I don't know a lot about the history here, other than a cursory knowledge.

That said, its pretty shocking to me to hear of another school with unmarked grave sites...so it wasn't some rogue school...

not sure what to say, its very very sad to hear about however...

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by blankall

I disagree. This was a direct plan by the Canadian government to destroy the indigenous nations and assimilate their people. I see this as the government using an inherently intolerant religious organization to accomplish their goals. The Canadian government wanted these people gone, and handed them over to the church to accomplish that goal.

I agree. If it wasn't a religious doctrine it would have been another doctrine.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by firebug

Not trying to pick on you specifically, but i think this is the weakest of weak excuses.

I'm a member of a professional association with an Honor Code/Code of Ethics (CFA) and our professional expectation is to abide by the Legal Guidelines (ie those established by the Government) or the applicable Guideline from our Conduct Code... WHICHEVER IS HIGHER.

For an association that claims to be bounded by the 'Ultimate Guide to Ethics and Morality' (written by God himself) to be putting the blame on the government is weak weak weak.

The only thing worse than a Government that set out to destroy a People are those who were complicit with it while concurrently bragging about their moral and ethical superiority.

You’re confusing the poster blaming the government and the church blaming the government.

Also the government not only set out to destroy these peop,e and were also complicit while bragging about their moral and ethical superiority, so yeah I think that does make them worse.

The church wasn’t some rogue organization acting without government sanction.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

I've refrained from posting on this, frankly, because I don't know a lot about the history here, other than a cursory knowledge.

That said, its pretty shocking to me to hear of another school with unmarked grave sites...so it wasn't some rogue school...

not sure what to say, its very very sad to hear about however...

This is, sadly, just the start. The one here in Red Deer was notorious, so I'm bracing myself for what they discover.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Yamer

This is, sadly, just the start. The one here in Red Deer was notorious, so I'm bracing myself for what they discover.

Oh, we are definitely just getting started, we very well could end up with 10,000 or more.

From the top to the bottom, there were people who should have known better, and done something - anything - to stop the evil that was happening. The Government, the regional church bodies, the local churches/organizations, and the people actually there actually running the residential schools. How could kids be dying at a rate much higher than the background rate (which was still very high compared to what we are used to now), and no one say anything, fight for change, do anything about it.

There also is an element of schools, especially rural ones, being quite poorly run. My dad went to rural day school in southern Manitoba, and was punished for speaking the only language he knew at the time. My mom was perhaps more lucky, as she was the youngest child, and her siblings are enough older than her that they would have had English introduced at home already. Knowing some of that, I can attribute some of the whole issue to people in those schools who were trying their best with the extremely underfunding that they had. But that doesn’t excuse indignity, nor not attempting to force change.

But that’s why it’s called systemic racism, the whole system down from the top leads to even people who may care down at the bottom not being able to do enough. The not caring at the top trickles down to the bottom, front line people too, over time.

I hope I can learn, and have the empathy needed to help do what is required fir this country to heal.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Wait wait wait. You're saying a bunch of church going devoted Christian/Catholic men formed their own indoctrination strategy and made the creators of indoctrination do their bidding? Okay.

Well you can read the Ryerson report and draw your own conclusions. It’s one of the foundational documents on residential school policy.

In my opinion it reads and I am paraphrasing that the indigenous people are such savages only the Christianity can save them whereas uneducated rural whites do not need the Church to save them. So to me it’s the State asking the Church to “fix” indigenous people rather than the Church declaring these people needed to be saved and the government listening to the church.

This was a government policy to destroy indigenous culture carried out by an uncaring and corrupt church.

the North American Indian cannot be civilized or preserved in a state of civilization (including habits of industry and sobriety) except in connect with, if not by the influence of, not only religious instruction and sentiment but of religious feelings. Even in ordinary civilized life, the mass of the labouring classes are controlled by their feelings and almost the only rule of action, in proportion to the absence or partial character of their intellectual development. The theory of a certain kind of education philosophy is falsified in respect to the Indian: with him nothing can be done to improve or elevate his character and condition without the aid of religious feeling. This influence must be superadded to all others to make the Indian a sober and industrious man. Even a knowledge of the doctrines and moral precepts of orthodox [c]hristianity, with all the appliances of prudential example and moral instruction, is inadequate to produce in the heart and life of the Indian, the spirit and habits of an industrial civilization, without the additional energy and impulsive activity of religious feeling.”

https://indigenousresurgence.blog.ryerson.ca/

To blame the Church as the primary actor seems like away to try to sluff off guilt of from the Colonial practices that gave us the benefits we have today.

[iggy_oi]

I’ll put it this way. The Catholic Church played a role, a big one at that, but the fact remains these schools have been decommissioned for a couple of decades, our government(s) knew that children went missing, and with all the technology available over the last couple of decades we’re only finding these mass burial sites now. Tough to pin that on the church.

[afc wimbledon]

We dont have to pick here guys, both the Church and Canada can be ######bags in this story

[Manhattanboy]

Honest question, what have the Liberals done in terms of significant implementation of the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

They seem to be good at putting out statements.

[Oling_Roachinen]

For all of its many many faults, Bill C-69 was intended to start addressing some of the requirements of United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People and Bill C-15 was to affirm that declaration. Implementation of the declaration was one of the calls to action.

But yeah, the issue is that it's knocking out like two or three of the actions per year completing like a dozen or so of the 90+ calls to action since they took over.

EDIT: Looks like United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act received its royal accession earlier this week.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I agree. If it wasn't a religious doctrine it would have been another doctrine.

Of course it would...BUT, who better than the Catholics to be the perfect organization to help the government with the problem...


Their experience was all worldly after all.


Pope Pius denying mass execution during WW2
Systemic coverup of child abuse
Pope Boniface V111
Joan of Arc
Slaying of Witches
Taking cash for absolving sins
The Roman Inquisition
Galileo
The LGBTQ issue

[bigtmac19]

I seen many comments about not referring to these places as residential schools as it is not a true term and sounds too nice. Residential institutions at best.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Honest question, what have the Liberals done in terms of significant implementation of the recommendations of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

They seem to be good at putting out statements.

The Government's assessment:
https://www.rcaanc-cirnac.gc.ca/eng/.../1557511412801

AFN assessment:
https://www.afn.ca/wp-content/upload...t-Card_ENG.pdf

Also, since it comes up often, progress on clean water:
https://www.sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/150651.../1533317130660

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

That said, its pretty shocking to me to hear of another school with unmarked grave sites...so it wasn't some rogue school...

not sure what to say, its very very sad to hear about however...

Unfortunately this is likely just the tip of the iceberg, and Canada is long past a serious reckoning with our past. Governments and churches need to be held accountable. And the rest of us need to do whatever we can to help. Apparently the map below is also incomplete, there are far more than even this is showing.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1408092079373303809

[Cecil Terwilliger]

"Put yourselves in the shoes of these children in the ground."

I'm sorry, what?

[Hockeyguy15]

I can't imagine having my son taken away to be abused and killed.

We ####ed up in a bad way.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

"Put yourselves in the shoes of these children in the ground."

I'm sorry, what?

Imagine if you, as a child, went through what they went through.