As one of the Brodie Irrationalists, can you back your claim up?
As a Brodie rationalist, it would be dead easy as most people know on here to post up Brodie brain farts that wind up in the back of our net. Am I prepared to spend time putting together a video montage for you showing them? Nope.
The Following User Says Thank You to fireguyfire For This Useful Post:
As a Brodie rationalist, it would be dead easy as most people know on here to post up Brodie brain farts that wind up in the back of our net. Am I prepared to spend time putting together a video montage for you showing them? Nope.
I trust a collection of video examples of any player’s mistakes as representative as much as I trust those highlight reels of prospects (remember the video evidence that “the Monster” was going to take over the NHL?). Moreover, the evidence would have to show that he caused as many goals as he helped create, which was the claim.
I’m no Brodie fanboy. In fact I was advocating his trade (mainly because he was the best return and the hopes I had for the young D corps). But to suggest he’s a net negative on the ice is mistaken, no matter who he plays with.
Definitely not saying he’s a net negative, and I am not a Brodie hater, however using strictly his points as a benchmark doesn’t show the full picture of the player; there’s no question he has a habit of costing the Flames goals; all I am suggesting is that should also be factored in to the analysis if you are going to be fair about it.
Definitely not saying he’s a net negative, and I am not a Brodie hater, however using strictly his points as a benchmark doesn’t show the full picture of the player; there’s no question he has a habit of costing the Flames goals; all I am suggesting is that should also be factored in to the analysis if you are going to be fair about it.
That’s not what you said. But even saying “habit” is overstating by a lot.
As a Brodie rationalist, it would be dead easy as most people know on here to post up Brodie brain farts that wind up in the back of our net. Am I prepared to spend time putting together a video montage for you showing them? Nope.
It would be "easy" to do the same for guys like Schultz 2017, Letang 2016, Daley 2016, Cole 2017, Orpik 2018, Kempny 2018, Niskanen 2018, Bouwmeester 2019, Keith 2015, Seabrook 2015, Oduya 2015, Muzzin 2014, Doughty 2014, Voynov 2014.
Just a who's who of players who no doubt threw some ugly pizzas over a long season and yet won the Stanley Cup.
It's called cherrypicking negative emotional events. Skilled puck movers - guys like Brodie, Karlsson, Montour, Gardiner, are always trying to make something happen amd tend to be a lightning rod for criticism because of a bias towards "simple" plays. But time and time again over the grand scheme of things it's players like this that contribute to effective transitional hockey.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
Definitely not saying he’s a net negative, and I am not a Brodie hater, however using strictly his points as a benchmark doesn’t show the full picture of the player; there’s no question he has a habit of costing the Flames goals; all I am suggesting is that should also be factored in to the analysis if you are going to be fair about it.
Goal events are highly random from a defensive perspective. You can be terrible all year and not cost your team any goals because the other team missed the net or your goalie made grade A saves. You can be strong defensively and get burned on the occasional mishap because a guy picked a corner or a winger didn't cover his guy in the slot or the goalie lost concentration or a rebound bounced off a post right to the wrong guy's stick.
Skaters don't cost their team "goals". The only thing they can actively control is the quantity of clean looks they are giving up in the D zone. The best defensemen will give up breakaways and still need their goalie to make a save. The Kris Russell types can ride their luci all season long just the same.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
Just imagine how good Gaudreau would be if he was the fittest Flame.
Look what it's done for Gio.
As amazing as his skill is, imagine if he had any other top tier attribute other than skill/hockey sense?
If gaudreau was the fittest Flame would he easily break 100 points? I think so.
When I watch him I can't help but wonder, what if he wasn't just quick, but also fast? He doesn't need to be a horse like St. Louis, I mean like basically every other small guy in the league.
What if he was built like Viktor Arvidsson? Same height, 10-15 lbs stronger. 40 goals? 50?
I just don't see him as all that competitive as a person if he has yet to commit to being a top player. His inward frustration is not manifesting itself in that way. It's very 'me first'.
Gio, backlund, hamonic, Tkachuk, those guys have compete. Iggy had compete. He got after it away from the ice, and when the game changed and what he had been doing wasn't working anymore, he changed that up.
I like gaudreau a lot but that's the quality that's separating him from being a Kucherov/Kane/ovechkin level game changer.
If his trend line continues I think once his career is over you'll be able to look and say in his best seasons he was a top 10 or top 5 winger in the league. But I think that's too bad, because I think his talent says he could be league mvp in his peak years if he really was committed to being that player.
If you've got him on your team in that year yout
R heading to the cup final. IMO, that's his potential. Paul Kariya.
I'm not trying to evangelize in a post game thread, but it's not about sending him some message or having him watch to figure things out, it's a holistic issue.
You play him 20 minutes a might because he's so freaking good that even at 50% he's one of your top 3-5 guys, and you hope and pray he's going on that night. But man, wouldn't it be something if the guy came into camp one year and beat out the captain on the fitness testing.
What if when he's awarded a penalty shot after a breakaway, in the playoffs, he's not absolutely exhausted ?
Last edited by Flash Walken; 11-11-2019 at 05:24 PM.
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
I fundamentally agree with this, but is it an absolute that Gaudreau is not committed to fitness? Is he less fit than Kane, Hall, McKinnon and other elite players?
A guy like McDavid certainly seems fitter given the ice time he is carrying. Crosby too.
How well do we know what Gaudreau's off ice commitment is? Yeah he's not Gio or Iginla fitness level (or Frolik for that matter) but do we know if he is improving and/or where he stands relative to the league. I agree there isn't much visibly happening in the way of strength building.
Just curious what if fact vs. fiction more than anything else. He does sometimes look tired. He is not alone in that.
The Following User Says Thank You to Strange Brew For This Useful Post:
Well JG is a great player no doubt . But he doesnt have an ounce of Joey Mullen in him...another small player....Theo Fleury....another....Hakan Loob.
None of these guys took S from anyone but these guys also had great linemates , teammates who'd bust you up .
Not saying this is what Johnny needs but he does need to up his G A F meter .
I think people are blowing the fitness issue out of proportion. He's 26 and a pro athlete. He has never looked fatigued in a game. And his game is quickness and agility, so getting any larger is risky.
IMO, fitness becomes a much bigger issue in your 30s. Can you keep doing what you were able to do at 25? Being in the best shape possible is certainly going to help. Giordano is more fit at 36 or whatever he is than most 25 year olds, and that allows him to continue to perform at his best. But fitness doesn't raise your skill level, what it does is extend it, and allow you to maximize it.
Also, people assuming that Gaudreau's fitness is not where it needs to be is completely unfounded conjecture.
I fundamentally agree with this, but is it an absolute that Gaudreau is not committed to fitness? Is he less fit than Kane, Hall, McKinnon and other elite players?
A guy like McDavid certainly seems fitter given the ice time he is carrying. Crosby too.
How well do we know what Gaudreau's off ice commitment is? Yeah he's not Gio or Iginla fitness level (or Frolik for that matter) but do we know if he is improving and/or where he stands relative to the league. I agree there isn't much visibly happening in the way of strength building.
Just curious what if fact vs. fiction more than anything else. He does sometimes look tired. He is not alone in that.
To add to this, is building strength and mass going to automatically make him a better player. Different body types bring different advantages and skills. Extra mass might just impede Gaudreau's ability to turn on a dime, which would destroy his game.
Gaudreau is also getting slowly bigger. His size gains reflect someone who is putting in consistent and hard work. The idea that everyone can just train hard and put on 20-30 lbs of lean muscle in a year is totally unrealistic.
On top of this, by all accounts Gaudreau does train hard. He spends a lot of time training his should and also plenty of time in the gym. He always comes into fitness testing quite high, just not the highest in the team. A major part of that is genetic though. Some people are just naturally better at endurance sports, and no matter how hard you train they cannot be beat. Plus at least some of the players will be on PEDs.
The Following User Says Thank You to blankall For This Useful Post:
As a Brodie rationalist, it would be dead easy as most people know on here to post up Brodie brain farts that wind up in the back of our net. Am I prepared to spend time putting together a video montage for you showing them? Nope.
Just because you think of yourself as a rationalist, it doesn't mean you are one.
I think people are blowing the fitness issue out of proportion. He's 26 and a pro athlete. He has never looked fatigued in a game. And his game is quickness and agility, so getting any larger is risky.
IMO, fitness becomes a much bigger issue in your 30s. Can you keep doing what you were able to do at 25? Being in the best shape possible is certainly going to help. Giordano is more fit at 36 or whatever he is than most 25 year olds, and that allows him to continue to perform at his best. But fitness doesn't raise your skill level, what it does is extend it, and allow you to maximize it.
Also, people assuming that Gaudreau's fitness is not where it needs to be is completely unfounded conjecture.
It's not completely unfounded. There are lots of reports, both public and "insider", about this.
No one is asking that he be larger. Just fitter. And perhaps able top fight through the tight checking he now getting a little better.