07-20-2017, 10:57 PM
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#2021
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#1 Goaltender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichKlit
A third for Stajan? I'd be shocked at anything above a 5th. More likely a 6th but lately I feel like I'm way off.
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Stajan with half his salary retained should be a third fairly easily I would think.
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07-20-2017, 11:25 PM
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#2022
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Franchise Player
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With no salary retained, Stajan has negative value.
Or at least Vegas thought so, as they wouldn't have passed on him if any team would have given any pick for him.
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07-20-2017, 11:57 PM
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#2023
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Backup Goalie
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMatt18
Think it was brought up earlier this offseason too but Stajan makes some sense for the Pens IMO.
Pens have liked veterans as centers on their 3rd/4th line, Stajan is a good locker room guy who is not going to pout if he's put on the 4th line.
Stajan is still serviceable in that role and only has a year left on his contract. Probably more likely to waive his NTC for Pittsburgh - since he would then have a good shot at the cup.
Flames might even be willing to eat some of the cap hit which I think would make it palatable too.
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Why would the flames want to add more salary by eating stajans contract.
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07-20-2017, 11:58 PM
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#2024
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Backup Goalie
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny01
Here is my dream summer.
Stajan to the Pens for a pick.
Package of prospects (any Dman, Gillies, any non-Jankowski forward) for Duchene
If there is room left sign Iggy
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I love how every year the fetish turns to who is the best FA available and let's package all our top prospects for then. Next year's trend will be kovalchuk and how can we clear 6 million in cap for kovalchuk.
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07-21-2017, 12:26 AM
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#2025
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cobra
With no salary retained, Stajan has negative value.
Or at least Vegas thought so, as they wouldn't have passed on him if any team would have given any pick for him.
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Flawed reasoning there IMO.
1. Stajan has a modified NTC. So Vegas couldn't select him in order to trade him since they don't know what teams he's allowed to be traded to. They basically would have had to pick him to keep him.
2. A signed Engelland might be worth more to them than whatever they'd trade Stajan for. We've seen defensemen like Engelland be traded for 2nd or 3rd rounders at the deadline. Not inconceivable to think Engelland is just worth more overall than Stajan. And that of course doesn't necessarily mean Stajan is worth nothing.
So yeah. Very, very suspect conclusion you drew there. I'd say Stajan definitely has value.
However given his leadership role I'm not convinced we're looking to move him. And given the importance of his position and the depth you like to have in order to sustain injuries I'm not convinced we're looking to move him.
I won't be sad when his contract is off the books cause I think he's overpaid as a 4th line centre but we don't desperately need the cap space and he's a very, very good depth player at an important position. Tend to think they'll just hold onto him and ride the contract out until Bennett/Lazar/Jankowski have proven he's completely redundant which should happen to coincide with when his contract runs out. Works out pretty well in fact.
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07-21-2017, 12:36 AM
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#2026
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poe969
The Avs dont' need to get better now, you just said that even if they improve they're still garbage. They need to build a winner not try to "win now" (I know you're not saying they need to win now but improving now is pretty much the same).
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So they need to get worse? They need to trade one of their best forwards for prospects? The lottery no longer guarantees you draft top two if you finish bottom of the league so tanking isn't as amazing as when they Oilers did it. Look at where they picked this year after finishing last. Tanking is now even more unreliable than it was before.
They cannot afford to trade Duchene for prospects. The GM can't do it. I doubt ownership would allow it. Sends the worst message to fans. Prospects are a total gamble unless they are the most blue chip prospects out there. They need something proven. They have to get somebody back who can play in the NHL and make an impact next year. I'm absolutely shocked how many of you want to be blind to that reality. Deny it all you want but trading Duchene for prospects will never happen.
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07-21-2017, 12:52 AM
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#2027
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
So they need to get worse? They need to trade one of their best forwards for prospects? The lottery no longer guarantees you draft top two if you finish bottom of the league so tanking isn't as amazing as when they Oilers did it. Look at where they picked this year after finishing last. Tanking is now even more unreliable than it was before.
They cannot afford to trade Duchene for prospects. The GM can't do it. I doubt ownership would allow it. Sends the worst message to fans. Prospects are a total gamble unless they are the most blue chip prospects out there. They need something proven. They have to get somebody back who can play in the NHL and make an impact next year. I'm absolutely shocked how many of you want to be blind to that reality. Deny it all you want but trading Duchene for prospects will never happen.
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What do the Aves exactly want? Nobody seems to know!
Teams have offered prospects and been turned back.
Teams have offered picks and been turned back.
Isles offered a "win now" dMan under a great contract, and a 1st and we're told to take a hike.
What are the parameters here? Hate to guess a return if you don't know what you are shooting for.
I like Duchene, but a franchise player he is not. For all he has done, many are unclear as to his best position.
Honestly, even if I was interested I would have moved on. I think most GMs have as well.
If he is moved, I doubt the package of Hamonic +1st (if true) will be beat.
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07-21-2017, 01:03 AM
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#2028
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dying4acup
What do the Aves exactly want? Nobody seems to know!
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I think it's fairly easy to guess what they want. A young player with a high upside similar to what Duchene's upside was and is. Hamonic as a defensive defensemen isn't really what they're looking for. You don't trade one of your star forwards for a defensive defensemen IMO, can't sell that deal to ownership or fans.
What type of deal do they want? IMO they want a Johansen for Seth Jones type of deal. They'd love a young potential franchise defenseman. Or IMO they'd probably love a Duchene for Bennett type of deal. Where they trade a guy they thought would be a franchise centre for them for a guy who still has 1st line centre upside. Duchene for Christian Dvorak+ might work for them.
IMO the keys are that they need somebody who can make an impact next year. Somebody who has high upside. And probably somebody slightly younger than Duchene so that the ages mesh well with their new core and MacKinnon.
If they do trade him for a prospect it basically has to be a very high profile prospect who isn't far from stepping in. MAYBE a PL Dubois or a Dylan Strome type player. That's the only way I could see them trading him for a prospect. Listing off Flames prospects makes no sense unless they love Jankowski and that's the guy the deal is centred around. But IMO adding Duchene totally hoops the Flames salary cap structure long term and there's no guarantee we re-sign him so IMO it's a total no go for the Flames. I'd rather re-sign Tkachuk/Bennett/Backlund than add Duchene cause adding him would mean we'd have to lose one of them or trade somebody else.
Much more likely is trading him for a young NHLer. As I said a Christian Dvorak type. It's really hard to think of names because most teams aren't really looking to part with great young NHLers. Basically you have to find a team that is stacked at one position (like NSH was with D when they traded Seth Jones) and can afford to give up an 'A' level young player. PHX with Dvorak, Keller, Strome, Domi, Chychrun, etc is one of the only ones coming to mind for me. Can anybody else think of a team that has a wealth of young D or young F and could afford to part with one?
The fact it's hard to think of teams/players that fit those descriptions is why this Duchene deal is a hard one and hasn't happened yet. I mean I think the Flames have a wealth of young NHLers but it doesn't make sense for us to trade a Bennett/Tkachuk/Hamilton for Duchene for a variety of reasons.
Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher; 07-21-2017 at 01:17 AM.
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07-21-2017, 01:32 AM
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#2029
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
I think it's fairly easy to guess what they want. A young player with a high upside similar to what Duchene's upside was and is. Hamonic as a defensive defensemen isn't really what they're looking for. You don't trade one of your star forwards for a defensive defensemen IMO, can't sell that deal to ownership or fans.
What type of deal do they want? IMO they want a Johansen for Seth Jones type of deal. They'd love a young potential franchise defenseman. Or IMO they'd probably love a Duchene for Bennett type of deal. Where they trade a guy they thought would be a franchise centre for them for a guy who still has 1st line centre upside. Duchene for Christian Dvorak+ might work for them.
IMO the keys are that they need somebody who can make an impact next year. Somebody who has high upside. And probably somebody slightly younger than Duchene so that the ages mesh well with their new core and MacKinnon.
If they do trade him for a prospect it basically has to be a very high profile prospect who isn't far from stepping in. MAYBE a PL Dubois or a Dylan Strome type player. That's the only way I could see them trading him for a prospect. Listing off Flames prospects makes no sense unless they love Jankowski and that's the guy the deal is centred around. But IMO adding Duchene totally hoops the Flames salary cap structure long term and there's no guarantee we re-sign him so IMO it's a total no go for the Flames. I'd rather re-sign Tkachuk/Bennett/Backlund than add Duchene cause adding him would mean we'd have to lose one of them or trade somebody else.
Much more likely is trading him for a young NHLer. As I said a Christian Dvorak type. It's really hard to think of names because most teams aren't really looking to part with great young NHLers. Basically you have to find a team that is stacked at one position (like NSH was with D when they traded Seth Jones) and can afford to give up an 'A' level young player. PHX with Dvorak, Keller, Strome, Domi, Chychrun, etc is one of the only ones coming to mind for me. Can anybody else think of a team that has a wealth of young D or young F and could afford to part with one?
The fact it's hard to think of teams/players that fit those descriptions is why this Duchene deal is a hard one and hasn't happened yet. I mean I think the Flames have a wealth of young NHLers but it doesn't make sense for us to trade a Bennett/Tkachuk/Hamilton for Duchene for a variety of reasons.
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If that's the case, they likely need to move mackinnon instead of duchene.
Honestly, now that the draft has passed, I don't see a match anywhere. Most teams cap space is spent. Teams aren't keen to spend 1st rounders a year out without knowing where their teams land (Flames withstanding) and, as I mentioned earlier, Duchene isn't a game changing guy waiting to break out.
I wouldn't move Gaudreau or Monahan 1 for 1. The Flames guys are proven to at least compete, even in a season lost.
As a Flames fan, I would move Bennett, and a D prospect. Any they want. But that's it. That's a far lower than the Isles offer.
The aves are out on an island here. LOST!
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07-21-2017, 01:46 AM
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#2030
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dying4acup
As a Flames fan, I would move Bennett, and a D prospect. Any they want. But that's it. That's a far lower than the Isles offer.
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Bennett and a D prospect is far lower than the Isles offer?!? Wow I totally disagree on that one.
Bennett is worth more than Hamonic IMO. And several of our D prospects are worth around a mid 1st rounder to us IMO. Andersson and Kylington have impressed since being drafted and I think the 2 years of development makes them worth a mid-late 1st to us. I think Bennett + Valimaki/Andersson/Kylington is more than the Isles offer not far less.
Interesting that we see the values so differently. Personally I wouldn't even trade Bennett straight up for Duchene (for a variety of reasons) let alone adding in one of our top prospects. But I do think that's the type of player COL would like. Hamonic on the other hand isn't really the type of player they'd be targeting. Not young enough, not offensive enough.
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07-21-2017, 03:12 AM
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#2031
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First round-bust
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: speculating about AHL players
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The Flames should wait until the deadline to sell on Stajan, if they even do. An old, broken David Jones was worth a 6th-rounder then, and Stajan plays a much more important position with better value to his team.
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07-21-2017, 03:16 AM
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#2032
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Bennett and a D prospect is far lower than the Isles offer?!? Wow I totally disagree on that one.
Bennett is worth more than Hamonic IMO. And several of our D prospects are worth around a mid 1st rounder to us IMO. Andersson and Kylington have impressed since being drafted and I think the 2 years of development makes them worth a mid-late 1st to us. I think Bennett + Valimaki/Andersson/Kylington is more than the Isles offer not far less.
Interesting that we see the values so differently. Personally I wouldn't even trade Bennett straight up for Duchene (for a variety of reasons) let alone adding in one of our top prospects. But I do think that's the type of player COL would like. Hamonic on the other hand isn't really the type of player they'd be targeting. Not young enough, not offensive enough.
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When I compare the Isles offer, I think that even if they didn't have Hamonic as as a target, they could have flipped him to the Flames for the Same Package, and thus, 2 1sts and 2 2nds.
Is Bennett plus Valimaki equal to that? In my eyes no.
That being said, the aves (likely) didn't see what they might have got from flipping Hamonic. Nor have they been ok with an enhanced pick package from the Isles, who are known to be interested.
This all leads me to believe that the Aves haven't a clue what they want, and the Aves haven't a clue what he's worth!
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07-21-2017, 07:09 AM
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#2033
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CGY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dying4acup
When I compare the Isles offer, I think that even if they didn't have Hamonic as as a target, they could have flipped him to the Flames for the Same Package, and thus, 2 1sts and 2 2nds.
Is Bennett plus Valimaki equal to that? In my eyes no.
That being said, the aves (likely) didn't see what they might have got from flipping Hamonic. Nor have they been ok with an enhanced pick package from the Isles, who are known to be interested.
This all leads me to believe that the Aves haven't a clue what they want, and the Aves haven't a clue what he's worth!
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In my eyes a Bennett-Valimaki package is quite easily the better offer and it isn't really close.
Break it down like this. Duchene on the Islanders and Hamonic on the Flames makesmit very very likely those teams both make playoffs. I would ballpark those first round picks to be 19-31. Let's say optimistically it is the 19th and 21st pick. Have you ever witnessed 2 picks in that range trade up for 4th overall? Even if you argue in a re-draft Bennett should be picked 8th instead of 4th the 2 1sts packaged together does not get a team in the top 10
Now both 2nds are likely also looking to be late considering the Flames core is locked up for 3 years and the 2nd rounders are both from the Flames over the next 3 drafts (I can't recall which year the Yotes get the 2nd?) let's call those picks in the 45-61 range. Would 2 picks in that range allow a team to trade up to 16 in the first round? Personally I don't think that is close.
In summary Bennett is worth more than 2 late firsts and Valimaki is worth more than 2 late 2nds
Last edited by Vinny01; 07-21-2017 at 08:35 AM.
Reason: Autocorrect errors
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07-21-2017, 07:50 AM
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#2034
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Calgary, AB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgycowboy
Why would the flames want to add more salary by eating stajans contract.
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You don't add more salary. You eat $1M of it in order to get a better return, and you still clear $2.1M Overall.
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07-21-2017, 04:17 PM
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#2035
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Some kinda newsbreaker!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Learning Phaneufs skating style
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Treliving on 960 said to expect some minor signings in the coming days. If I had to guess he was referring to the likes of Gillies, Rittich, Kulak, and Wotherspoon
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07-21-2017, 09:18 PM
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#2036
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Paradise
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion
The Flames should wait until the deadline to sell on Stajan, if they even do. An old, broken David Jones was worth a 6th-rounder then, and Stajan plays a much more important position with better value to his team.
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If the Flames are looking in good shape for a long playoff run I can't see them giving Stajan away at the deadline.
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07-21-2017, 09:23 PM
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#2037
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SW Ontario
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Why even debate about Duchene? We really don't need him at all nor his salary and the short term left on his deal. Financially and positionally it makes no sense for us. Add in the fact it is either probably costing Bennett+ or Brodie and it becomes an even worse idea.
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07-22-2017, 08:26 AM
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#2038
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In the studio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentowner
Why even debate about Duchene? We really don't need him at all nor his salary and the short term left on his deal. Financially and positionally it makes no sense for us. Add in the fact it is either probably costing Bennett+ or Brodie and it becomes an even worse idea.
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Completely agree, no reason to add Duchene into this line-up it just doesn't make sense. He's a LW/C both forward positions in which we are over stocked so the only way he comes in is with one of those positions moving out and at this point in time Bennett+ for Duchene seems like too steep of a price to pay.
I'm hoping we sign Bennett, Trade Stajan and sign one of Jagr/Iginla down the stretch of the off-season here.
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07-22-2017, 08:34 AM
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#2039
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CGY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentowner
Why even debate about Duchene? We really don't need him at all nor his salary and the short term left on his deal. Financially and positionally it makes no sense for us. Add in the fact it is either probably costing Bennett+ or Brodie and it becomes an even worse idea.
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The only reason I even bring his name up is the Flames being linked to him via Friedman. We can debate the cost but I don't see the Flames paying the price of Bennett+ or Brodie. Ultimately there is very likely no trade here but a respected insider dropped the Flames and that started the speculation
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07-22-2017, 08:36 AM
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#2040
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CGY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgycowboy
I love how every year the fetish turns to who is the best FA available and let's package all our top prospects for then. Next year's trend will be kovalchuk and how can we clear 6 million in cap for kovalchuk.
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Yeah that's not it for me. As mentioned I dropped Duchene's name because Friedman listed the Flames as one of 5 teams that might circle back to Colorado this summer. That article doesn't come out I don't suggest Duchene to the Flames. Has nothing to do with what you are saying in your post
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