Calgary Flames General Manager Ranking - #3

[Bingo]

#1 - Cliff Fletcher
#2 - Brad Treliving

[agulati]

Darryl Sutter gets my vote for a second straight round.

[bubbsy]

it boggles my mind that the only GM that mustered a consistent playoff team for 5 years and got the team to the cup finals, (other than Cliff Fletcher) is deemed, at most -depending on how voting goes in subsequent rounds, the 4th best GM in the history of the franchise.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

it boggles my mind that the only GM that mustered a consistent playoff team for 5 years and got the team to the cup finals, (other than Cliff Fletcher) is deemed, at most -depending on how voting goes in subsequent rounds, the 4th best GM in the history of the franchise.

The abysmal drafting and treating of 2nd round picks like they were trade currency ruins it for me. He was a horrible amateur talent evaluator and never had a plan past riding Iggy and Kipper into the ground. That said I have him and Treliving are neck and neck and I just think Coates would have done a better job than both of them if he had their resources.

[zukes]

I voted Feaster by accident, meant to click Sutter

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The abysmal drafting and treating of 2nd round picks like they were trade currency ruins it for me. He was a horrible amateur talent evaluator and never had a plan past riding Iggy and Kipper into the ground. That said I have him and Treliving are neck and neck and I just think Coates would have done a better job than both of them if he had their resources.

I can't argue with this.

[Strange Brew]

Voting for Coates here is like voting for Rudy as one of the great Fighting Irish of all time. Plucky, did what he could with what he had to work with.

I’m still voting for the guy who turned the franchise around and is responsible for the most team success since 1989. Acquiring Reinprecht, Warrener, Kipper, Nilsson, Nieminen, Simon, Langkow, Tanguay, Huselius, Jokinen were some great hockey trades. Some of the UfA signings were awfully good, like Hamrlik.

He has far too many warts and blunders to suggest he shouldn’t have been fired. Leclerc, Kotalik, not getting value for Phaneuf, trading guys like Lydman and Stralman for peanuts, the drafting strategy etc. But when it’s all said and done, he gave us some excellent hockey teams. I suppose in essence my vote is for the Sutter era Flames being the best incarnation of the team after the Fletcher elite teams.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

it boggles my mind that the only GM that mustered a consistent playoff team for 5 years and got the team to the cup finals, (other than Cliff Fletcher) is deemed, at most -depending on how voting goes in subsequent rounds, the 4th best GM in the history of the franchise.

The way I view Sutter is that he had one good year, 2006.

2004 was a fluke.

2006 was solid, then exceedingly disappointing in the playoffs.

Everything else was utter rubbish.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The abysmal drafting and treating of 2nd round picks like they were trade currency ruins it for me. He was a horrible amateur talent evaluator and never had a plan past riding Iggy and Kipper into the ground. That said I have him and Treliving are neck and neck and I just think Coates would have done a better job than both of them if he had their resources.

Success trumps all. BT has done nothing outside of two lucky years. 2019 was tarnished due to the playoffs, and unsustainable anyway unless you believe career years from your best five players every year is possible. 2015 fooled him into making 'go for it' moves. The other 4? Mediocre.

People dismiss Sutter's 2004 run as a fluke but I remember one of the most well coached, heart and soul teams I've ever watched. Underrated skill too. Went on to make the playoffs 4 more years in a row. Culminated in a very, very strong 2009 team that though was older, still makes the current team look like a pretender in comparison. I swear Brad's media savvy and slick talking won him round 2 because there is nothing else there as far as I'm concerned. No Hamilton trades and all he has is some nice RFA signings. Well if that's what he's strong at, let him sign RFAs exclusively because he's average to below average at every other part of the job.

Sutter made better teams and didn't even need the draft to do it. How many top 6 picks did Sutter get? Oh ya, none except for Langkow who he robbed from Phoenix. BT came into a much more complete organization primed for a rebuild, we didn't even have a farm team when Sutter arrived. BT has like 15 AGMs. How many did Sutter get? None until Feaster who was clearly here to replace him.

Coates was better than BT too. BT winning RD 2 honestly makes me think that more people here are newer fans or something. I dont see how anyone in their 30s could possibly see Brad as 2. I am biased against the guy at this point, I'll admit. Just as I believe pro Treliving bias drove his rd 2 result. People were even voting for him in rd 1! 30 throw away votes. That's a lot. Sorry anyone who voted him at 1 can no longer have their opinion on the matter taken seriously. Some opinions are wrong, dead wrong. 10% of round one was totally uninformed or trolling.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Success trumps all. BT has done nothing outside of two lucky years. 2019 was tarnished due to the playoffs, and unsustainable anyway unless you believe career years from your best five players every year is possible. 2015 fooled him into making 'go for it' moves. The other 4? Mediocre.

People dismiss Sutter's 2004 run as a fluke but I remember one of the most well coached, heart and soul teams I've ever watched. Underrated skill too. Went on to make the playoffs 4 more years in a row. Culminated in a very, very strong 2009 team that though was older, still makes the current team look like a pretender in comparison. I swear Brad's media savvy and slick talking won him round 2 because there is nothing else there as far as I'm concerned. No Hamilton trades and all he has is some nice RFA signings. Well if that's what he's strong at, let him sign RFAs exclusively because he's average to below average at every other part of the job.

Sutter made better teams and didn't even need the draft to do it. How many top 6 picks did Sutter get? Oh ya, none except for Langkow who he robbed from Phoenix. BT came into a much more complete organization primed for a rebuild, we didn't even have a farm team when Sutter arrived. BT has like 15 AGMs. How many did Sutter get? None until Feaster who was clearly here to replace him.

Coates was better than BT too. BT winning RD 2 honestly makes me think that more people here are newer fans or something. I dont see how anyone in their 30s could possibly see Brad as 2. I am biased against the guy at this point, I'll admit. Just as I believe pro Treliving bias drove his rd 2 result. People were even voting for him in rd 1! 30 throw away votes. That's a lot. Sorry anyone who voted him at 1 can no longer have their opinion on the matter taken seriously. Some opinions are wrong, dead wrong. 10% of round one was totally uninformed or trolling.

This is reinforcing my concern that you have a borderline unhealthy obsession with Brad Treliving.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is reinforcing my concern that you have a borderline unhealthy obsession with Brad Treliving.

Why? I dont follow. Because I called him BT and Brad? I'm typing on a phone here. I also call him Tre sometimes. All 3 get used regularly by all sorts of posters.

[Caged Great]

With a goalie like Kiprusoff and a player like Iginla, there is no reason why Calgary should not have been one of the elite teams in the NHL from 05-06 through 09-10.

The abysmal drafting and weird talent evaluations from the Flames ruined that during that stretch.

If the Flames had Treliving and the current scouting directives, Calgary might have reached their potential last decade.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Why? I dont follow. Because I called him BT and Brad? I'm typing on a phone here. I also call him Tre sometimes. All 3 get used regularly by all sorts of posters.

No. It's because you can't seem to post about anything else without denigrating Treliving, while also complaining about posters who don't share your point of view.

[Jiri Hrdina]

You can't just judge a GM by on-ice success. The GM's job is to manage the overall asset base of the organization and the long-term health of that asset base. In that regard, Sutter was average at best. So my evaluation is on that basis.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Coates was better than BT too. BT winning RD 2 honestly makes me think that more people here are newer fans or something. I dont see how anyone in their 30s could possibly see Brad as 2. I am biased against the guy at this point, I'll admit. Just as I believe pro Treliving bias drove his rd 2 result. People were even voting for him in rd 1! 30 throw away votes. That's a lot. Sorry anyone who voted him at 1 can no longer have their opinion on the matter taken seriously. Some opinions are wrong, dead wrong. 10% of round one was totally uninformed or trolling.

Again, I don't know why people have to assume flawed thinking when someone has a different point of view. There are valid arguments for and against BT, well articulated and outlined by people on either side of the debate.

I'm 45 years old. I've followed the Flames since the mid 80s. Doesn't make my opinion more or less valid, but its an example of someone who has a strong impression of BT and someone who has followed the team closely for over 30 years.

When you say "anyone who voted him at 1 can no longer have their opinion on the matter taken seriously" it really stifles healthy debate.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No. It's because you can't seem to post about anything else without denigrating Treliving, and then complaining about posters who don't share your point of view.

Have I slandered brad or something? I feel I point out facts for the most part. I'm not here calling BT ugly or making stuff up. I feel I have provided strong arguments that are mostly not countered well at all. Even here you accuse me of having an obsession. Why not actually attack the post itself? If you are going to drop some pro brad stuff, save the rfa stuff. I get it. He signed a handful of players to good value contracts. Maybe he should be an AGM and he can specialize in that.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Again, I don't know why people have to assume flawed thinking when someone has a different point of view. There are valid arguments for and against BT, well articulated and outlined by people on either side of the debate.



I'm 45 years old. I've followed the Flames since the mid 80s. Doesn't make my opinion more or less valid, but its an example of someone who has a strong impression of BT and someone who has followed the team closely for over 30 years.



When you say "anyone who voted him at 1 can no longer have their opinion on the matter taken seriously" it really stifles healthy debate.

Sorry. Brad at 1 is wrong.

What would you say if I said Robyn Regehr is the best player in franchise history? Would you debate it or consider it ridiculous? That's what Brad at 1 is to me.

I can see Brad at 2 arguments. I will agree that Sutter is not miles ahead of BT. However, BT at 1 is wrong wrong wrong. We won the cup in 89 under Fletcher and had several top 5 teams for years. People saying BT is better than Fletcher are saying 2+2=5.

[Sylvanfan]

To me Sutter had an identity for his team and was better than the other GM's at getting the team to execute. People look back at that team with a lot of disdain now but they were 13-20 in losing 5 straight series. In each of those losses they literally were a break or two away from winning any of those save the 07 series vs Detroit which was an open net away from being a 7 game series. That team played the series without Regehr too.

He did trade second round picks, but the guys he got in Kiprusoff, Nilson, Conroy v2, Rene Bourque did play important roles for a few seasons. The free agent signings tended to be shorter term so even if they did not work out like Amonte they did not hurt the team.

Coates had very limited resources, but he also traded guys like Niewedyk, Robert's, Fleury, and Housley. He should have had something to show for trading those guys. He too could not find goaltending and could not really improve the on ice performance of the team. Krahn, and Fata were like picking Pelech and Irving but with top 10 picks. He got Iginla and Regehr..so credit there...although again, I think Sutter deserves the kudos for making Regehr into the player he was for the Flames. Button was trying to get rid of him for a Zanulin at one point...

[Oling_Roachinen]

I believe Sutter saved the Flames. I would easily have him ahead of Treliving.

Without Kirpsuoff, the Flames don't go on a run. Without the run, does Iginla bother to stay with a team that hasn't made the playoffs since his rookie year? Do the Flames offer him a lucrative offer without the fan support that came with the run? I doubt either.

And without Kiprusoff, without Iginla, without hope, do the Flames even stay in Calgary? Balsillie might be looking at Hotchkiss and Edwards instead of the other teams he pursued.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The abysmal drafting and treating of 2nd round picks like they were trade currency ruins it for me. He was a horrible amateur talent evaluator and never had a plan past riding Iggy and Kipper into the ground. That said I have him and Treliving are neck and neck and I just think Coates would have done a better job than both of them if he had their resources.

Fair enough, I can't discount any points you have made. As a fan, I want to watch a team that wins and gets me excited for the playoffs year in and year out.

Sutter is the only GM in 30 years that created that experience for me, where I got to watch playoff hockey for 5 straight seasons.

I don't care if the GM trades every draft pick away every year, if that means I get to watch them compete in the playoffs every year.

Having a "Good prospect pool", "strong development", "eye for amateur talent" are meaningless to me, as a fan, if that doesn't translate to wins and playoff hockey. The GM of the year award never goes to a the franchise head with the "best prospect pool".

Treliving has all the above quotations, yet, nowhere near the consistent year over year quality of performance from the team.