Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 01-06-2011, 09:19 AM   #41
User Name
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonchuck
Exp:
Default

i think people on both sides should watch this documentary Frontline: The Vaccine War.. its on netflix at the moment. It traces a case of whooping cough that errupted in the southern states and ended up infecting hundreds of people, and costing thousands (if not in the millions, can't remember) of dollars to get rid of that outbreak.

What I don't think "anti vac" people get is that vaccinations rely on herd immunity, in that we need to hit a certain % for it to protect against those who can not get these vaccines. IE the sick, the elderly, and the very young, etc. So if you don't get one, its not just yourself or your family you are affecting...
__________________
Stuck in Edmonton until my degree is done, which sucks. Cheering for the flames in Edmonton, oh so much fun!
User Name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:19 AM   #42
mikey_the_redneck
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Lethbridge
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firebug View Post
Nor can you deny the scourge that water has been on society.

It is likely that water will kill more people in North America just today than have been killed by mercury globally in the past thousand years.
Water doesn't kill you, but water contaminated with mercury or other harmful agents can kill you.
mikey_the_redneck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:20 AM   #43
BigBrodieFan
Franchise Player
 
BigBrodieFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: H-Town, Texas
Exp:
Default

Maybe the whole '9 shots' thing included 9 different vaccinations that were given in three or 4 shots. For example, diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis is given in one shot, measles/mumps/rubella is given in one shot, and then polio is usually administered by liquid now. Hep b and Heb a are given, sometimes varicella is given. All necessary to go to school here.

Last time my kids went to their physicals they had to get Hep shots (can't remember which) and varicella.

My son had bacterial meningitis when he was only 4 years old and he was in ICU for 10 days, literally on his death bed. I wish there was a meningococcal immunization when he was a baby. It was terribly scary.

To be honest, when my two boys were babies I was afraid to give them the immunizations because of all of the side effects, and I grew up with a kid who got polio because of the immunization which was EXTREMELY rare. I am so glad I did. After the meningitis, I am obsessed with keeping them up to date with everything.

Maybe there is some link to autism and immunizations, I am no expert. But personally, I'd rather take the slight risk and immunize against deadly diseases.
BigBrodieFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:21 AM   #44
firebug
Powerplay Quarterback
 
firebug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mayor of McKenzie Towne
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
Water doesn't kill you, but water contaminated with mercury or other harmful agents can kill you.
Blatantly incorrect.

Water is lethal.
__________________
"Teach a man to reason, and he'll think for a lifetime"

~P^2
firebug is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to firebug For This Useful Post:
Old 01-06-2011, 09:27 AM   #45
corporatejay
Franchise Player
 
corporatejay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
I'd say that is a scare tactic actually, and this is the way the media typically acts when flu season rolls around or some "pandemic" like swine flu comes about mysteriously.

Getting a measles shot is one thing but getting a seasonal flu vaccine every year is unnecessary. It's known that vitamin D supplements are just as effective, if not more so than taking the shot. I have not been seriously sick in years and I don't take any vaccines.
That's a solid sample size.

You do realize that the swine flu wasn't overhyped, the reason it never got to pandemic levels is because of vaccines.

Think about this:

There are 3 million people in Alberta. Suppose, 1% of those people got the swine flu. That's 30,000 people sick. Let's say, of those 10% of those people get seriously ill and had to be hospitalized. Now we're talking 0.1% of Albertans. That's 3,000 people, nearly half of Alberta's entire bed capacity being dealt with for swine flu (Alberta has about 8,000 beds). If you think the health care system is bad, think about 50% of your resources being consumed by a disease in the span of months.

This doesn't even account for the fact that I bet many rural hospitals aren't equipped to deal with an outbreak like that, not to mention the financial impact.

Our health care system isn't set up to treat in a small outbreak, and that's why prevantative medicine is far more efficent than reactive.
__________________
corporatejay is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to corporatejay For This Useful Post:
Old 01-06-2011, 09:29 AM   #46
FlamesAddiction
Franchise Player
 
FlamesAddiction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatineau
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firebug View Post
Could you give some examples of an unnecessary vaccine?
I'd say an unnecessary vaccine is one administered to a person who has no realistic risk of actually getting the disease while there are shortages in areas or among demographics that do need them. The H1N1 vaccination program was a good example of that.

Quote:
Are any children still getting small pox vaccines?

We are actually getting close to eradicating polio on a global basis; there are only a couple countries in Africa left that are dealing with it. Once that happens I would expect that polio will be removed from the vaccine schedule.
Irrelevant to anything I said since I clearly stated that I am not against vaccinations in general. I am against using fear to convince people that vaccinations are necessary 100% of the time.


Quote:
As far as vaccines go, you are correct. However we would be better off to require people who opt out to pay for any damages caused to society if they act as carriers to vulnerable populations.
Interesting. Can you quantify what those damages are? It sounds pretty irrational to pin blame on a very small precentage of the population like that.

Quote:
Maybe the fault then lies in an misunderstanding of probabilities.
I have no misunderstandings of probabilities. I have a science background and have worked in high level research facilities in the past. The probability of an epidemic occurring because low risk people refuse to get vaccinated is pretty small. Let's not go overboard.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
FlamesAddiction is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to FlamesAddiction For This Useful Post:
Old 01-06-2011, 09:29 AM   #47
The Yen Man
Franchise Player
 
The Yen Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Yikes, I hope they eventually arrest and charge this Wakefield guy for attempted murder if his report comes out as a big fraud. The guy could have potentially indirectly murdered a lot of innocent kids by influencing some parents into not getting their kids vaccinated with his bogus report.
The Yen Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:31 AM   #48
Thor
God of Hating Twitter
 
Thor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
The article presented convincing evidence to debunk 3 myths:
  1. MMR causes autism.
  2. Thimerosal (mercury) causes autism.
  3. Simultaneous administration of multiple vaccines overwhelms and weakens the immune system, triggering autism in a susceptible host.

Gerber and Offit reviewed 13 large-scale studies that demonstrated no association between the MMR vaccine and autism. These included ecologic studies, retrospective observational studies and prospective observational studies. The findings were consistent; the only outlier in all the studies of MMR was Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s small, discredited 1998 study, which was fully retracted by The Lancet in early 2010.
They reviewed 7 large-scale studies (again, ecologic, retrospective, and prospective) that consistently demonstrated no association between thimerosal and autism. They showed that the hypothesis was not biologically plausible, since the symptoms of mercury poisoning are distinct from those of autism and are not produced by the thimerosal in vaccines.
They showed that the overload hypothesis is not credible because
  1. The immunologic load has dropped from 3000 components in the 7 vaccines used in 1980 to less than 200 in the 14 vaccines recommended today.
  2. An infant’s immune system is capable of handling the thousands of antigens it is exposed to early in life.
  3. Vaccinated children are not more susceptible to infections.
  4. Autism is not an autoimmune disease.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=7807

from this original Vaccines and Autism: A Tale of Shifting Hypotheses (Oxford)

Also another great read on the Toxic myths about Vaccines.

Its interesting that since MMR > Autism link is about as dead in the water as can be, Jenny Mccarthy and her ilk are moving the goalposts to well then what about other stuff in vaccines, all the while seemingly unwilling to just read the facts or talk to experts in these matters.
__________________
Allskonar fyrir Aumingja!!
Thor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:34 AM   #49
Raekwon
First Line Centre
 
Raekwon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Airdrie, Alberta
Exp:
Default

Everyone knows that this issue was just used to cover up the real issue of using vaccines to implant tracking chips.
Raekwon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:37 AM   #50
fredr123
Franchise Player
 
fredr123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by valo403 View Post
Now I'm not a MedMal or Tort attorney, but I'm pretty sure that the "federal vaccine court" is only accesible by passing through a wardrobe of some sort. It's also interesting to note that the linked article has 3 sources, none of which are related to the claimed award of damages based on a vaccine causing autism like symptoms. Good stuff Mikey.
I LOLed at the wardrobe comment.

I'm sure Mikey and the author of the article were referring to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP): http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

Quote:
The VICP is a no-fault alternative to the traditional tort system for resolving vaccine injury claims that provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. The U. S. Court of Federal Claims decides who will be paid.
There's more information about the VICP and the omnibus autism proceedings here: http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensat...proceeding.htm

Long story short, the US Federal Court (and Federal Court of Appeal in some cases) has consistently found no causal link between MMR vaccines and autism in any of various test cases heard to date based on any of the three theories of causation alleged.

Also, based on what I pieced together from that article, it seems that "Hannah" settled out of court and was not awarded damages of any sort. As valo and others can attest, out of court settlements rarely mean that a party is admitting liability in any way. There are plenty of valid reasons for settling a claim even if you ultimately may be vindicated.
fredr123 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to fredr123 For This Useful Post:
Old 01-06-2011, 09:40 AM   #51
User Name
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Edmonchuck
Exp:
Default

In that movie that i mentioned above, they take a look at denmark (I think it is) to debunk these anti-vax, as they are in a unique position because they record all the vacination history for ALL their citizens, amongst other medical information. From a sample size as large as that country they found NO evidence at all that vaccines cause autism. None. And this is a massive sample size.

They also mention a dozen or so other studies which ALL have definatively proven that mecury/vaccines dont cause autism.
__________________
Stuck in Edmonton until my degree is done, which sucks. Cheering for the flames in Edmonton, oh so much fun!
User Name is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:41 AM   #52
Ashartus
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
I didn't say vaccines didn't help, I said they were not primarily responsible for the reduction in disease, such as MMR. We're talking something like <5%, if I remember my single medical anthropology class correctly.
It's a lot more than 5% - if you look at the Stats Canada data for measles (for example) the incidence rate plummeted after the MMR vaccine became widespread. It went from 300,000 to 400,000 cases annually with no real changes in incidence from the 1920's to the 1960's, to about 10 cases annually.
Ashartus is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ashartus For This Useful Post:
Old 01-06-2011, 09:43 AM   #53
peter12
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashartus View Post
It's a lot more than 5% - if you look at the Stats Canada data for measles (for example) the incidence rate plummeted after the MMR vaccine became widespread. It went from 300,000 to 400,000 cases annually with no real changes in incidence from the 1920's to the 1960's, to about 10 cases annually.
That's interesting. I could be wrong, but I'll dig up a few studies I have at home in paper copy to try to remember where I read this.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:43 AM   #54
Calgaryborn
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Creston
Exp:
Default

Accepted science does not neccesarily equal truth.

One can see many instances where science has gotten it wrong in the past. Certainly medical science has a very dubious track record. The fact that science in this day and age has married itself to big corporations and big government doesn't help its credibility at all.

You are a fool to not at least question whatever is currently passing as accepted science. Those of you who are acting like it is a cardinal sin not to vaccinate betray a blind faith in institutions that don't deserve such trust.

I had my boys vaccinated because I determined that the rewards were greater than the risks. However, I do respect those who come to a different conclusion. What I don't like is you zealots who have sacrificed independant thought and critical thinking on the altar of scientific orthadoxy. Your "holier than thou attitude" is annoying.
Calgaryborn is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Calgaryborn For This Useful Post:
Old 01-06-2011, 09:44 AM   #55
Rathji
Franchise Player
 
Rathji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Supporting Urban Sprawl
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
Maybe chemical was the wrong word but you can't deny the harm that mercury and formaldehyde (some vaccines contain these ingredients) can inflict on the body.
Do you realize that the maximum amount of mercury in a dose of any vaccine that ever had mercury in it is less than the allowable mercury in a liter of water by the government of Saskatchewan?

If you are interested in the math behind it, during a previous thread on the topic I did the calculations.
__________________
"Wake up, Luigi! The only time plumbers sleep on the job is when we're working by the hour."
Rathji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:47 AM   #56
burn_this_city
Franchise Player
 
burn_this_city's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgaryborn View Post
Accepted science does not neccesarily equal truth.

One can see many instances where science has gotten it wrong in the past. Certainly medical science has a very dubious track record. The fact that science in this day and age has married itself to big corporations and big government doesn't help its credibility at all.

You are a fool to not at least question whatever is currently passing as accepted science. Those of you who are acting like it is a cardinal sin not to vaccinate betray a blind faith in institutions that don't deserve such trust.

I had my boys vaccinated because I determined that the rewards were greater than the risks. However, I do respect those who come to a different conclusion. What I don't like is you zealots who have sacrificed independant thought and critical thinking on the altar of scientific orthadoxy. Your "holier than thou attitude" is annoying.
You're right, its better to submit to dogma than proven science.
burn_this_city is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 09:48 AM   #57
chemgear
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
Water doesn't kill you, but water contaminated with mercury or other harmful agents can kill you.
You realize that pretty much all natural sources of water are "contaminated" by mercury. Heck, they even track levels of mercury deposition and runoff from the atmosphere to water.

. . . air kills you too.
chemgear is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 10:04 AM   #58
photon
The new goggles also do nothing.
 
photon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
I'd say that is a scare tactic actually, and this is the way the media typically acts when flu season rolls around or some "pandemic" like swine flu comes about mysteriously.
This indicative of the flawed reasoning you are employing.. we were talking about nurses administering the vaccines, not the media. The media does what it does, that doesn't have any relevance to the risks and benefits of vaccinations.

And you put pandemic in quotes to try and make some point, but H1N1 met all the criteria for a pandemic, yet you employ more flawed reasoning by making an appeal to emotion with your "so called" quotes.

It's not a scare tactic to state what is going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
Getting a measles shot is one thing but getting a seasonal flu vaccine every year is unnecessary.
What's the difference then? How can one be ok but the other not be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
It's known that vitamin D supplements are just as effective, if not more so than taking the shot.
I've read some studies on vitamin D with relation to flu and cold, and they don't say what you are claiming here. This is a bare assertion, substantiate it with some evidence.

While you are at it maybe you can explain how taking vitamin D can generate antibodies for a particular strain of flu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck View Post
I have not been seriously sick in years and I don't take any vaccines.
That you think this kind of fallacious reasoning is in any way meaningful is telling.
photon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 10:05 AM   #59
FlamesAddiction
Franchise Player
 
FlamesAddiction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Gatineau
Exp:
Default

It's also worth noting that vaccines are not 100% effective. You can get vaccinated, but still get the disease. I read that one of the hep vaccines was around 90% effective and that was considered high. I also read that there is an HIV vaccine in testing, but is is only around 40% effective (although nothing is concrete yet). The number is too low to allow it to be used.

It is important that people know how effective it is. It is conceivable that large populations get vaccinated and the false sense of security does more harm than good. The H1N1 program was well underway before we knew how effective it would be. That seemed pretty irresponsible to vaccinate more than just the most prone people.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
FlamesAddiction is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2011, 10:06 AM   #60
firebug
Powerplay Quarterback
 
firebug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mayor of McKenzie Towne
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
I'd say an unnecessary vaccine is one administered to a person who has no realistic risk of actually getting the disease while there are shortages in areas or among demographics that do need them. The H1N1 vaccination program was a good example of that.
So it was the administration of the program rather than the vaccine itself that is the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
Irrelevant to anything I said since I clearly stated that I am not against vaccinations in general. I am against using fear to convince people that vaccinations are necessary 100% of the time.
Ironic given:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
I am pretty cynical about many vaccination programs. No doubt vaccines in general save lives when they are needed, but there is also no doubt in my mind that pharmacutical companies overhype things so they can sell more vaccines. I also don't doubt that a certain percentage of people can get sick from vaccines and the different agents used to make and administer them.
It seems you are okay in using fear to avoid vaccinations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
Interesting. Can you quantify what those damages are? It sounds pretty irrational to pin blame on a very small precentage of the population like that.
Actually if causation could be proved (I am under no illusion that it could), it would actually be very rational to have responsible parties (negligent in these examples) compensate for the damages they cause.

The flaw in my argument is not rationality but more so practicality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
I have no misunderstandings of probabilities. I have a science background and have worked in high level research facilities in the past. The probability of an epidemic occurring because low risk people refuse to get vaccinated is pretty small. Let's not go overboard.
Again, if you have studies that demonstrate that our current vaccine schedule is ineffective I would be happy to learn more about them.

So far I have yet to see this evidence conclusively produced.
__________________
"Teach a man to reason, and he'll think for a lifetime"

~P^2
firebug is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:06 PM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016