Friedman's 31 thoughts Dec 31 - some Flames unhappy about being shuffled in/out

[TheScorpion]

Jankowski for Evan Rodrigues is a change of scenery deal that seems like it'd make sense for both teams

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Jankowski for Evan Rodrigues is a change of scenery deal that seems like it'd make sense for both teams

Jankowski, Bennett, Hamonic for Rodriguez, Thompson, and Miller. Seems like a swap of similar players, although the Flames get a player with good upside in Thompson, at a position we're short on.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

They were like a 3a/3b, but Jankowski played more ES minutes per game than Ryan did. The only thing that is terrible is your uneducated and poorly thought out opinion.

As the season went on, Ryan took over the 3rd line spot because it was obvious to all that he was a much better player. But ya, herpa derpa, jankowski hurr durr.. Maybe lay down the crown royal bud, its causing your synapses to short circuit.

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[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by New Era

Jankowski, Bennett, Hamonic for Rodriguez, Thompson, and Miller. Seems like a swap of similar players, although the Flames get a player with good upside in Thompson, at a position we're short on.

It's actually a pretty intriguing proposal. I dont like any of the three leaving and we would be picking up a couple young players that maybe do better here. As a side bonus, it would be good to know that hamonic wasn't getting a moronic contract thrown his way.

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[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Hey Connor, It's Mess

The realities of being a fringe player on a good team with depth.

For a good team with depth, the Flames aren’t that good.

At least this year.

They have given up 16 more goals than they have scored, and are, in reality, a below .500 team.


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[Rando]

Tyson Jost would be an interesting pull out of Colorado. Seems lost behind Avalanche depth.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Captain Obvious alert: It sucks around here when things aren’t going well haha

I know he has struggled but I don’t think trading Johnny is the answer. Tkachuk is leading the team and has 5 more points than #13.

With a couple good games Johnny could be our leading scorer.

Everyone’s memories are so short in some ways.

The team was firing on all cylinders last year and Johnny had nearly 100pts.

This year the team is struggling and Johnny is on pace for 60pts.

The team needed to add to the group in the offseason, instead lengthy RFA holdouts and a player not waiving their no-trade clause really tied Treliving hands.

We need more 5v5 scoring in the form of a top 6 forwards balance things out.

How can it only be on Johnny when the whole teams scoring rates are down and the offence from the backend has dried up all together this year?

Something bigger is wrong when you are the 2nd worst even strength scoring team, behind only the basement dweller Wings, after being one of the best last season.

We have depth but outside of Ryan our bottom 6 has produced next to nothing.

When that is the case the pressure is on the top 6 and given that Mangiapane is just getting used to the role the onus goes to 5 guys.

Backlund is not best suited to be in an offensive role and has struggled mightily.

That leaves 4 forwards carrying the brunt of the top 6 scoring load. Given this and the lack of defensive scoring it’s no wonder we are struggling to score.

Trading Johnny doesn’t help this problem IMO.


We need someone to slot in:

Tkachuk-Lindholm-Mangiapane
Gaudreau-Monahan-________

Guess why our 5 on production is terrible? Partially because Gaudreau has been god awful 5 on 5. That's why its on him more than the others. I mean you talk points and points but there's more to hockey than just points. Gaudreau has been flat out bad for a lot of this year. I don't know how anyone who's been watching closely could say otherwise. Sure he's racked up some points but his points this year frankly flatter his play. It's been easy to shut down Gaudreau this year. He's given up possession far too easily. People are pointing a lot of the blame for this year's scoring on Gaudreau because he's clearly been the biggest problem this year.

Trading him for another elite forward who is better 5 on 5 and can't be shut down as easily 5 on 5 could easily make us a better team. It's quite easy to imagine.

People say he won't have value. It's BS. With open ice Gaudreau is still magic. He can't create the open ice for himself like he used to. But GM's can think optimistically. They can think that Gaudreau will fit better on their team because they have bigger and more physical skilled players to create room for Gaudreau. They can value (or perhaps overvalue) his puck skill because perhaps that's their biggest need. Some GM's value pure skill more than others. Just like some GM's value competitiveness more than others, or size/strength, etc. Some GM's put more value in numbers and these GM's would probably would still badly want Gaudreau.

I know some will argue we can't trade him because of his puck skill but I've long questioned whether the really soft, skilled players are who you win with in the playoffs. You've got to have a certain amount of grit and heart to fight through NHL playoff checking and get anywhere near the net. I am often accused of being optimistic about all things Flames and this year has me very pessimistic about Gaudreau ever having the tenacity, courage, heart, grit, etc to fight through tighter more physical playoff checking.

But you're never going to convince everyone to jump on the trade Gaudreau bandwagon. Some (not saying you are) will overlook his warts because of his magic and I understand that perspective. It's going to be a very important second half and playoffs for Johnny.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I know some will argue we can't trade him because of his puck skill but I've long questioned whether the really soft, skilled players are who you win with in the playoffs. You've got to have a certain amount of grit and heart to fight through NHL playoff checking and get anywhere near the net. I am often accused of being optimistic about all things Flames and this year has me very pessimistic about Gaudreau ever having the tenacity, courage, heart, grit, etc to fight through tighter more physical playoff checking.

But you're never going to convince everyone to jump on the trade Gaudreau bandwagon. Some (not saying you are) will overlook his warts because of his magic and I understand that perspective. It's going to be a very important second half and playoffs for Johnny.

I respect your posts and perspective but disagree wholeheartedly with your or anyone else’s take downs of Gaudreau. I think people are rightfully looking at the team’s terrible playoffs last year and comparing to the Blues method as the type that wins in the playoffs. It’s one way not the only way.

I think CGY can win with Gaudreau with a style similar to the ‘16 penguins. Puck speed. Obviously CGY don’t have a Crosby or Malkin but it’s not like those guys carried the team with 2 pts/gm. Their team play moved the puck quick away from closing pressure. CGY can achieve this but it’s up to the entire team to :
-adopt this style (again) and move away from the chip and chase game.
-Players committing to the hard work required. Just aggressive, fast pressure everywhere on the ice. Yes that means Gaudreau needs to step it up but it’s incumbent on the entire team (coaches, GM) to put the tactics in place and be put in situations to succeed.

The Penguins, as an organization, have always had a little bit of renegade in them. They don’t belong to the old guard. They’ve always been about speed and skill, believers that talent and hard work win out against structure and the dreaded trap.

Now, the organization sits on the verge of its fourth championship. Once again, it’s being done their way.

They aren’t big. They aren’t physical. They don’t have a traditional third line, or a traditional fourth line. They don’t have traditional stay-at-home defensemen. There is nothing about them, in fact, that is at all traditional. When they try to sit back to protect leads, it rarely goes well.

https://www.pensburgh.com/2016/6/9/1...penguins-style

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I think CGY can win with Gaudreau with a style similar to the ‘16 penguins. Puck speed. Obviously CGY don’t have a Crosby or Malkin but it’s not like those guys carried the team with 2 pts/gm. Their team play moved the puck quick away from closing pressure. CGY can achieve this but it’s up to the entire team to :
-adopt this style (again) and move away from the chip and chase game.
-Players committing to the hard work required. Just aggressive, fast pressure everywhere on the ice.

I don't think we have the players to play an ultra-fast aggressive style. Half our top 6 players are mediocre skaters (Monahan, Tkachuk, Mangiapane.) Since two of those are likely to be core players any shift to an ultra fast style would require a complete roster retool.

And based on this year and last playoffs Gaudreau isn't showing he's committed to the hard work required. Gaudreau wants to win badly, I don't doubt that. But he gets frustrated and when he does he tries to do it all and fails and hurts the team. I'm not sure he's ever going to move past that. I'm not sure he'll ever be strong enough to fight through NHL playoff checking and I'm not sure he'll ever be brave enough to do so either. Mangiapane is fearless and watching the two of them play is a real contrast.

I have a long history of not liking the soft, purely skilled players. It's quite evident in my posting history on this forum. It long predates St. Louis winning last year or even Gaudreau being on the team. I'm sure anyone who's been here a long time knows that. I argued pretty hard against drafting Alex Nylander in Tkachuk's year for that reason (wanted one of Dubois/Tkachuk bad and thought 1 dman would probably go before us which would let us grab one of them.) So I'm going to be harder on Gaudreau than your average Calgary fan as I much prefer players who play with some grit and physicality to ultra soft players.

What part of my Gaudreau take do you disagree with? Do you think he's played well this year? Do you think he's making good decisions with the puck? Has he looked dangerous 5 on 5 for any significant stretch this year? Is he helping in any way when he's not putting up points?

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ they are not that bad skaters. The speed they need to play with isn’t from skating, it’s from puck movement.

Instead of Gaudreau winding up and trying to skate through everyone while his teammate are standing still, waiting to see what he does, if he draws multiple checkers, they should be moving to a place he knows he can hit them.

I think being smart and being creative is more important to playing a quick style than raw skating speed. Johnny has great edge work, but not necessarily too end speed.

When the PP works, it’s those 3-4 quick passes that the opposition can’t keep up to.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don't think we have the players to play an ultra-fast aggressive style. Half our top 6 players are mediocre skaters (Monahan, Tkachuk, Mangiapane.) Since two of those are likely to be core players any shift to an ultra fast style would require a complete roster retool.

And based on this year and last playoffs Gaudreau isn't showing he's committed to the hard work required. Gaudreau wants to win badly, I don't doubt that. But he gets frustrated and when he does he tries to do it all and fails and hurts the team. I'm not sure he's ever going to move past that. I'm not sure he'll ever be strong enough to fight through NHL checking and I'm not sure he'll ever be brave enough to do so either. Mangiapane is fearless and watching the two of them play is a real contrast.

What part of my Gaudreau take do you disagree with? Do you think he's played well this year? Do you think he's making good decisions with the puck? Has he looked dangerous 5 on 5 for any significant stretch this year? Is he helping in any way when he's not putting up points?

Good points and questions:
-Mangiapane is a very good skater. Not heavy or powerful but fast and agile.
-It’s about moving the puck fast not necessarily the skaters being ultra fast (Tkachuk) although that helps but CGY does have those kind of guys: Mangiapane, Dube then a bunch of above average guys Lindholm, Bennett etc.
-Gaudreau has not performed to his abilities. I think he needs to play with someone who can demand the puck from him and execute the responsibilities of carrying it. In the current lineup I would try having Backlund centre the line. The centre should have the most touches but Gaudreau has been the guy they just give it to. Backlund at centre would give him a give and go guy line mate. I love Monahan as well. CGY does not use its centres well. Especially under Ward (harkening to Gulutzan) The centres don’t get the puck in the pocket. CGY going D to D then up to winger for chip. Play puck possession.
-Gaudreau even in a down year consistently creates plays out if nothing. Yes he hasn’t done it to same level and yes he has turned pucks over but he is still creating plays. He needs help with line mates but I agree he has to help himself with his mental approach- he needs both.
-I don’t think Gaudreau has been at his best (partially for above) but I don’t think he has been as bad as people are suggesting.

Gaudreau has abilities that maybe a handful of players in the world have. I think there is a tendency to just give him the puck all the time. Line mates (centre) needs to distribute that burden.

Generally I think He needs to be better but so does the team (transition plays, coverage, exits playing aggressively to get the confidence.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Good points and questions:
-Mangiapane is a very good skater. Not heavy or powerful but fast and agile.
-It’s about moving the puck fast not necessarily the skaters being ultra fast (Tkachuk) although that helps but CGY does have those kind of guys: Mangiapane, Dube then a bunch of above average guys Lindholm, Bennett etc.
-Gaudreau has not performed to his abilities. I think he needs to play with someone who can demand the puck from him and execute the responsibilities of carrying it. In the current lineup I would try having Backlund centre the line. The centre should have the most touches but Gaudreau has been the guy they just give it to. Backlund at centre would give him a give and go guy line mate. I love Monahan as well. CGY does not use its centres well. Especially under Ward (harkening to Gulutzan) The centres don’t get the puck in the pocket. CGY going D to D then up to winger for chip. Play puck possession.
-Gaudreau even in a down year consistently creates plays out if nothing. Yes he hasn’t done it to same level and yes he has turned pucks over but he is still creating plays. He needs help with line mates but I agree he has to help himself with his mental approach- he needs both.
-I don’t think Gaudreau has been at his best (partially for above) but I don’t think he has been as bad as people are suggesting.

Gaudreau has abilities that maybe a handful of players in the world have. I think there is a tendency to just give him the puck all the time. Line mates (centre) needs to distribute that burden.

Generally I think He needs to be better but so does the team (transition plays, coverage, exits playing aggressively to get the confidence.

Mangipane is a pretty bad skater. Don't know where you get that he is a good skater.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Red

Mangipane is a pretty bad skater. Don't know where you get that he is a good skater.

Brad Treliving's Take: Speed and skill. I think he was eight or ninth in scoring in the OHL. High end skill. You look at our game as it’s moving along here ... There’s an emphasis on skill. We think we checked the boxes. We went through the draft wanting to add skill to the lineup. He’s a competitive guy. He does all the skill things; four-on-four, three-on-three, he’s a dangerous player with his speed, real good IQ, can make plays, over 100 points this year, so we think we added some skill there.

Tod Button's Take: We watched him a lot last year ... We saw him a lot and we saw the improvement from last year to this year. He’s always been guy that can skate.
WHAT SCOUTS SAY

International Scouting Service: Mangiapane skates with lots of speed and quickness in his step, a tough player to contain off the rush.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/what...apane/c-772997

Also just watching him on the ice. If you can’t see him using his speed on forecheck etc I don’t know what to tell you.

[dammage79]

Mangipane is not a bad skater. Hes just not up to NHL standards in terms of strength and balance. Or whatever you call it that prevents you from falling down a lot. Stajan had that problem too. He was a fine NHLer.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Red

Mangipane is a pretty bad skater. Don't know where you get that he is a good skater.

No he’s not, I don’t know where you’d get he’s not a good skater.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Obviously CGY don’t have a Crosby or Malkin but it’s not like those guys carried the team with 2 pts/gm.

This is really an odd take...they may not have scored 2 pts a game, but they are #1 and #2 for playoff PPG among active players (8th and 22nd all time)...

So, they definitely carried the Pens by both scoring more points and in every other facet of the game...

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

This is really an odd take...they may not have scored 2 pts a game, but they are #1 and #2 for playoff PPG among active players (8th and 22nd all time)...

So, they definitely carried the Pens by both scoring more points and in every other facet of the game...

That year (2016) was a year when their team speed ie puck movement took the league by storm. It was how the team played not just on how those 2 performed. I’m obviously not saying PIT doesn’t benefit by those players but in that year PIT did not rely on just them. It was the team play - how they moved the puck.

[motorcrosser]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

No he’s not, I don’t know where you’d get he’s not a good skater.

He falls down an awful lot. But, in fairness, he's trying really hard too.

Sent from here.