Autonomous Driving Features in Cars 2020

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

There is lots of talk that Tesla's autonomous system is their ace in the hole, that no other manufacturer can compete. It doesn't seem that is true at all. GM's supercruise takes the win.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...tance-systems/

Tesla still ranks highest on capabilities and performance, but only by one point. It falls behind on monitoring the driver for awareness.

Agreed with TorqueDog. In 2020, driver assistance is a big deal. Tesla certainly has problems, and consumer reports highlights what are important features on cars right now for safety. They're just evaluating them on something important in 2020 whereas a lot of the hype around Tesla is for what is still years away. In the long run, driver assistance isn't at all the point of autonomous vehicles. The big thing is reaching full autonomy so that cars stop being cars and become mobile spaces that can be anything inside without a human driver. When full autonomy works, driver assistance becomes irrelevant. Good to have more competition in the space anyways.

[GreenLantern2814]

It’s worth remembering that if you have an adaptive cruise system and actually use it, you are in the vast minority of drivers.

The majority of customers fall into one of three categories:

1. They’ve never heard of it
2. They don’t care
3. They find the very idea unsettling and don’t trust it

It’s virtually never a deciding factor as to why someone goes with X over Y.

All this is to say, I don’t expect widespread adoption and acceptance of these systems at the driver level any time soon. But if your car has one and you’re not using it, give it a whirl - they’re really great for road trips.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It’s worth remembering that if you have an adaptive cruise system and actually use it, you are in the vast minority of drivers.

The majority of customers fall into one of three categories:

1. They’ve never heard of it
2. They don’t care
3. They find the very idea unsettling and don’t trust it

It’s virtually never a deciding factor as to why someone goes with X over Y.

All this is to say, I don’t expect widespread adoption and acceptance of these systems at the driver level any time soon. But if your car has one and you’re not using it, give it a whirl - they’re really great for road trips.

From my experience with Mercedes Benz, if you have adaptive cruise (Distronic or Distronic Plus), you don't have a choice, it is always adaptive. And when the system hits interference (usually between Calgary and Medicine Hat, I found), the system is disabled entirely... as in you get no cruise control, adaptive or not. You also lose blind spot monitoring, lane-keep assist, pre-safe brake, etc. You basically go back to stability and traction control as your driver aids.

So that's one important thing to consider, a lot of these 'adaptive' features cannot operate in a legacy mode. If something interferes with the radar sensors, you get nothing until you pass the interference.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I guess it depends on what you're looking for. The ability of the car to autonomously pilot itself through dynamic traffic situations is what most people tend to be interested in because it involves so many variables. "Is the driver paying attention?" seems less impressive as a feature, although I don't think it needs to be stated how important it is to actually rolling out autonomous driving broadly.

Ya, this is short term, working with the technology we have. And what we have is technology that needs babysitting. So in that case, if the technology isn't there to remind you to babysit, is it really much of a safety feature?



There have been plentty of studies and articles that show this level of autonomy is dangerous unsueprvised, because we assume it is going to do what we want, and then stop paying attention. In the edge cases it can't handle, it can kill you, or someone else. Full autonomy is a long way off, so we need these other parts of the safety system to work as well as possible.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

From my experience with Mercedes Benz, if you have adaptive cruise (Distronic or Distronic Plus), you don't have a choice, it is always adaptive. And when the system hits interference (usually between Calgary and Medicine Hat, I found), the system is disabled entirely... as in you get no cruise control, adaptive or not. You also lose blind spot monitoring, lane-keep assist, pre-safe brake, etc. You basically go back to stability and traction control as your driver aids.

So that's one important thing to consider, a lot of these 'adaptive' features cannot operate in a legacy mode. If something interferes with the radar sensors, you get nothing until you pass the interference.

Oh that’s definitely true - you can’t turn off the adaptive settings.

A not-insubstantial percentage of the population doesn’t use cruise control. Adaptive or not, they aren’t comfortable with a system that they feel dulls their perception on the road.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Adaptive or not, they aren’t comfortable with a system that they feel dulls their perception on the road.

It's funny you say that, that was one of the best things about going from the tech-playground of E550 back to an analog car, as much as I love tech. I feel like I'm more aware of what's going on because I have to be, I'm more integral to the experience.

[woob]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

From my experience with Mercedes Benz, if you have adaptive cruise (Distronic or Distronic Plus), you don't have a choice, it is always adaptive. And when the system hits interference (usually between Calgary and Medicine Hat, I found), the system is disabled entirely... as in you get no cruise control, adaptive or not. You also lose blind spot monitoring, lane-keep assist, pre-safe brake, etc. You basically go back to stability and traction control as your driver aids.

So that's one important thing to consider, a lot of these 'adaptive' features cannot operate in a legacy mode. If something interferes with the radar sensors, you get nothing until you pass the interference.

Just curious, what's the cause of interference? Is it airwave based? I admittedly don't know much about interference with driver aid systems. Are these systems relying on some kind of constant ping back to the mothership?

And if yes to airwaves; having done that drive many times due to a job I had way back when, I totally know where you're talking about.

[burn_this_city]

The system doesn't work with run of the mill road spray in the winter. Once the sensors get a coating of grime the system just gives up and chimes that it's deactivated.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by woob

Just curious, what's the cause of interference? Is it airwave based? I admittedly don't know much about interference with driver aid systems. Are these systems relying on some kind of constant ping back to the mothership?

And if yes to airwaves; having done that drive many times due to a job I had way back when, I totally know where you're talking about.

I believe you're right. Here's a thread about it, unfortunately a lot of the PDF links are broken, but the one from the DOT can be searched using "FHWA DOT" and the article number. Apparently K-Band and W-Band interference will cause the system to shut down.

[Misterpants]

My question with Autonomous cars is around our winter climate. Is there a design that will allow them to operate in the variable conditions we see with respect to road conditions, visibility and winter collision avoidance? I wonder if the solution lies in infrastructure upgrades to roads whereby sensors guide the navigation of the vehicles.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Misterpants

My question with Autonomous cars is around our winter climate. Is there a design that will allow them to operate in the variable conditions we see with respect to road conditions, visibility and winter collision avoidance? I wonder if the solution lies in infrastructure upgrades to roads whereby sensors guide the navigation of the vehicles.

Lidar is the best at it, as it can see through precipitation. But it is more expensive. It also doesn't really solve all the unpredictability of winter driving.

[Misterpants]

I feel like the unpredictability of driving on ice should be pretty easy. If they can make those Boston Dynamics robots get pushed around, kicked and thrown and still stand up, I'm sure they can dial in wheel slippage. I just wish they were making more advancements in the area of hover cars.

[woob]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

The system doesn't work with run of the mill road spray in the winter. Once the sensors get a coating of grime the system just gives up and chimes that it's deactivated.

So we're going to see the Canada package: Every sensor has a corresponding wiper mounted, ala Mercedes/Volvo headlamp style.

[TorqueDog]

^Automakers have this figured out already with their windscreen-integrated camera arrays by putting them in the pathway of the wiper arm so they get cleaned. The few times I parked my E550 outside and it snowed on it, the camera system would report it was inoperable until I cleaned the snow off the windshield and it reset itself.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Lidar is the best at it, as it can see through precipitation. But it is more expensive. It also doesn't really solve all the unpredictability of winter driving.

Lidar can only see through precipitation until road spray as a result of said precipitation covers the sensors with dirt and reduces the light transmission of the -- now dirty -- lenses. I had to clean the heads on the Blinder lidar system in my old Jeep before every drive to keep the system functional.

A combination of both cameras and radar or lidar is probably the best approach.

As for winter driving conditions and autonomous cars, it should actually be easier because the computer is in control of ALL the inputs from steering to acceleration to braking. Whereas currently, the car needs to constantly figure out what the hell to do and take into account the fact that some organic squidgy thing behind the wheel is panicking and f--king up.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Misterpants

I feel like the unpredictability of driving on ice should be pretty easy. If they can make those Boston Dynamics robots get pushed around, kicked and thrown and still stand up, I'm sure they can dial in wheel slippage. I just wish they were making more advancements in the area of hover cars.

It's not just that, it's things like a semi passing you in heavy snow, or spun out vehicles on the side of the road, or some imbecile cutting in on you, or a snow plow to get around. A lot of what we do winter driving is taking extra risks. Do you design a system that takes excess risks to get you where you want in a reasonable time, or do you have it sit behind a snow plow for an hour?

[Misterpants]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not just that, it's things like a semi passing you in heavy snow, or spun out vehicles on the side of the road, or some imbecile cutting in on you, or a snow plow to get around. A lot of what we do winter driving is taking extra risks. Do you design a system that takes excess risks to get you where you want in a reasonable time, or do you have it sit behind a snow plow for an hour?

FFWD to the era where I step into my autonomous cube vehicle, 6-pack in hand ready to play the new Playstation 6 game that was just released (Skyrim-Mega Edition). Flop down onto the couch, play some vids and 10 minutes later, I have made my commute from downtown Calgary to Airdrie. A bit of a slow commute that day, but that's ok.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Misterpants

My question with Autonomous cars is around our winter climate. Is there a design that will allow them to operate in the variable conditions we see with respect to road conditions, visibility and winter collision avoidance? I wonder if the solution lies in infrastructure upgrades to roads whereby sensors guide the navigation of the vehicles.

You’d have to start by mandating winter rubber between October and April.

Winter driving conditions are too random for a computer to handle on its own.

Especially on all-seasons.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

You’d have to start by mandating winter rubber between October and April.

Winter driving conditions are too random for a computer to handle on its own.

Especially on all-seasons.

You're either grossly underestimating these systems or grossly overestimating human drivers' abilities.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by woob

So we're going to see the Canada package: Every sensor has a corresponding wiper mounted, ala Mercedes/Volvo headlamp style.

Most German cars don't even offer that option anymore because it barely works or not at all.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You're either grossly underestimating these systems or grossly overestimating human drivers' abilities.

I know how these systems work, and I use them all the time - they are for use in clear conditions, as they do not adjust for them. They are programmed to maintain speed and following distance while detecting metal objects in front of them.

If the car applies normal-weather brake force to a car with all season tires in -20 weather, that's not good.

To say nothing of a blizzard.

The world is extremely complicated, and it doesn't get less complex in the cold and dark.