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Old 01-14-2019, 09:21 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by TheOnlyBilko View Post
It's between Kucherov and Johnny Gaudreau

If you talk to Sportsnet they think John Gibson will win the Hart
Gibson has fallen way off. Call me crazy, but I think the Ducks won't be anywhere near the playoffs by the time the season is over.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see the Blues snag that second WC spot the way all those teams have been crapping the bed.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:25 AM   #42
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I agree Gio could be considered for the Hart. Therein lies the problem for great players on good teams, given the MVP criteria. Is Gio more valuable than Johnny? Maybe. But is he more valuable on a magnitude of other players on their teams? And what about Rittich?

Iggy had this issue a bit - he was the best player on the team, but team success was all about Kipper.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:29 AM   #43
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I love Gaudreau but he’s not even the MVP of this team
I'm not so sure. I feel Gaudreau is as important to the team as Gio is. Really close between the two for me. I just feel the team has been scoring it's way out of some shoddy defense and goaltending at times this season and most of the scoring centers around Gaudreau. If he slumps this team isn't scoring many goals on a nightly basis.
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:40 AM   #44
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I'm not so sure. I feel Gaudreau is as important to the team as Gio is. Really close between the two for me. I just feel the team has been scoring it's way out of some shoddy defense and goaltending at times this season and most of the scoring centers around Gaudreau. If he slumps this team isn't scoring many goals on a nightly basis.
Simple solution. Gaudreau - Hart, Giordano - Norris
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Old 01-14-2019, 09:48 AM   #45
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Sadly that has what this award has become. If you have good teammates or elevate your teammates, it eliminates you from this award.

So, the front runner has to be McDavid. The Rod Smith soundbite confirms this is how the media thinks. If the oilers make the playoffs, it's his.
I sort of agree, but there are a few caveats. First, if someone wins the Art Ross by a lot - say, ~10 points - and his team makes the playoffs, that's the trump card. Since Kucherov is on pace to do that, and he's the best player on not just the best team in the league but the best team we've seen in the league in some time, he's the current front runner.

Second, the whole "best player on a mediocre team who drags them into the postseason" story works better for the Devils and Avs last year than it does for the Oilers, as those two teams were more or less just feel-good turnaround stories. The Oilers are a debacle, there's no "feel good" there, it's just constant negativity and bile. So I'm not sure that the narrative works for McDavid there. That being said, he may still get a bump if they do get into the postseason, as it would take a strong streak of winning towards the end of the season, and voters are biased towards things that happen late in the season (see Corey Perry's Hart Trophy).

Third, on the opposite end, McDavid is the league's "guy" post-Crosby, he automatically gets consideration for the trophy, and so has an inherent marketing-based advantage in terms of being a favourite even before the season starts.

Finally, there may be some momentum to give the award to MacKinnon, as he arguably deserved it just as much as hall last year, but didn't get it. On the other hand, there will be people claiming that he's not even the best player on his team, which for me is enough to convince me that he probably won't unless he winds up with more points than Rantanen.

To sum up,

1. If Kucherov outscores McDavid significantly, Kucherov wins it;
2. If Kucherov outscores McDavid by only a little, McDavid probably gets it, but only if the Oilers make the playoffs.
3. If the top scorers in the league are relatively close and one of them is MacKinnon, and he outscores Rantanen, and the Avs make the playoffs, MacKinnon has a good chance at getting it.
4. Johnny Gaudreau has almost no chance of winning unless he wins the Art Ross, and even then, he might not if other players are within a few points of him and have more easily told stories.

If I were betting now I'd bet on Kucherov.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:12 AM   #46
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I'm not so sure. I feel Gaudreau is as important to the team as Gio is. Really close between the two for me. I just feel the team has been scoring it's way out of some shoddy defense and goaltending at times this season and most of the scoring centers around Gaudreau. If he slumps this team isn't scoring many goals on a nightly basis.
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Simple solution. Gaudreau - Hart, Giordano - Norris
So that's the problem with an MVP versus an MOP award. How can you win the Hart when your team has a Norris trophy winner on it (and possibly a Selke and Byng nominee as well). Surely that makes Gaudreau less "valuable" to his team than, say Kucherov.

Frankly, in absolute and pedantic terms, McDavid is the MVP each and every year because of the vast gulf between him and the rest of his team. Can the Oilers win a game without him? Doubtful. Can any other team win a game without their best player? Yes.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:19 AM   #47
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I just think imagine if the Flames were able to get both Kucherov and Gaudreau. If they had more picks early on in that draft it could have happened.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:26 AM   #48
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I just think imagine if the Flames were able to get both Kucherov and Gaudreau. If they had more picks early on in that draft it could have happened.
Don’t know how to tell you this but Flames chose Granlund and Wotherspoon in the 2nd round before Kucherov was selected by TB.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:34 AM   #49
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Don’t know how to tell you this but Flames chose Granlund and Wotherspoon in the 2nd round before Kucherov was selected by TB.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:38 AM   #50
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Don’t know how to tell you this but Flames chose Granlund and Wotherspoon in the 2nd round before Kucherov was selected by TB.
Right, but Kucherov (and Gaudreau) were "wild cards" as stated by the Flames scouting brass so I think they needed a few more bullets (maybe one more?) to be bold enough to grab him.

Point is that kudos to the Flames scouting staff for identifying the two best players out of that draft.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:39 AM   #51
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This is not happening. But I am fully on board with this.



Gio for Hart. He has been the best Flame.
Nah Gaudreau has. But Gio's been a beast too.
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Old 01-14-2019, 11:12 AM   #52
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Another factor is opportunities. Maybe Kucherov wouldn't have gotten similar/same opportunities as he got in Tampa Bay. Playing with Stamkos really helped his career take off. He might have not had that chance in Calgary.
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:24 PM   #53
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My vote is.for.Gio
I was just thinking the same - the guy has been amazing this year over most years. If this is the year, Gio will win both the Hart and Norris trophies. I'd like to see him win it all this year!
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:57 PM   #54
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Another factor is opportunities. Maybe Kucherov wouldn't have gotten similar/same opportunities as he got in Tampa Bay. Playing with Stamkos really helped his career take off. He might have not had that chance in Calgary.
Martin St. Louis and Brett Hull agree
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:06 PM   #55
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Brett Hull was a point-per-game rookie with the Flames (after killing it in the AHL). He had fine opportunity with the Flames they just sold him early on in his career to get depth and ultimately the Cup.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:19 PM   #56
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I wonder if the Flames took Kucherov if they would have passed on Gaudreau
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:25 PM   #57
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I wonder if the Flames took Kucherov if they would have passed on Gaudreau
I remember Button saying that the reason the Flames passed on Kucherov was because they knew they were going to draft Gaudreau.

Despite this, they had Kucherov high on their rankings. Apparently they almost drafted him anyways.

""The Flames merrily made their second-round shouts — Markus Granlund, 45th; Tyler Wotherspoon, 57th — then groaned when the Tampa Bay Lightning nabbed Kucherov at No. 58.

“I turned to Jay and said, ‘We’ve got to take Johnny with the next pick,’ ” recalls Button. “Jay said, ‘Go ahead. Take him.’ ”"

From the Calgary Herald

Last edited by 1qqaaz; 01-14-2019 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:27 PM   #58
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Cannot quote for some reason but that would have been a hell of a draft to get Kucherov and Gaudreau
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Old 01-14-2019, 03:32 PM   #59
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I remember Button saying that the reason the Flames passed on Kucherov was because they knew they were going to draft Gaudreau.

Despite this, they had Kucherov high on their rankings. Apparently they almost drafted him anyways.

""The Flames merrily made their second-round shouts — Markus Granlund, 45th; Tyler Wotherspoon, 57th — then groaned when the Tampa Bay Lightning nabbed Kucherov at No. 58.

“I turned to Jay and said, ‘We’ve got to take Johnny with the next pick,’ ” recalls Button. “Jay said, ‘Go ahead. Take him.’ ”"

From the Calgary Herald
Why did they have Granlund higher than Kucherov? I know looking back is easy but I'd love to know why they rated Granlund higher. They liked them both.
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Old 01-14-2019, 03:36 PM   #60
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Why did they have Granlund higher than Kucherov? I know looking back is easy but I'd love to know why they rated Granlund higher. They liked them both.
Central scouting had Granlund at 9 and Kuch at 17 for European skaters. I suppose the Russian factor might have played into it as well.

Number one was, of course, Adam Larsson.
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