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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher
The problem is, it doesn't much help you play a physical or heavy game if that beef is all on the 3rd and 4th lines, and the 3rd pairing defence.
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I agree with this.
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You need size and power in the core, and in the lines that get the bulk of the ice time. The '89 Flames had McLellan, Paterson, and Niewendyk on the top two lines. At the time, those were big guys. Throw in Roberts (and the fact Gilmour and Mullen were both highly gritty players), and you had a team that could fight through checks and handle a rough game when its best players were on the ice.
So how can the Flames add size and a heavy game to their top two lines? They can trade or sign guys like Lucic and Okposo. But the price will be high. Very high. Or they can draft and develop them internally. Sure, you can take a few wild swings like the Hunter Smith pick. Low-odds gambles with later picks. Or you can draft for size with your high picks. That means putting a premium on guys like Logan Brown.
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In today's NHL the third line is more of a second-2nd line in terms of both power play distribution and 5-on-5 ice time. It's very common for excellent teams to have one of their better offensive players on their 3rd line plus first power play, and one of their more average offensive players on their 1st line yet not on the power play. That's not just a Hartley thing, it's just the way the league is going. Among surviving teams, look at the talent on the third lines of teams like the Sharks, Penguins, Stars, Ducks by the end of this season. Names pop up like Marleau, Seguin, Perry, and Kessel.
Also it feels like you're operating off the base assumption that we're starting from total scratch with respect to size and more importantly a heavy game - that all our top 6 players are smaller.
And let's look at guys already in our system, even ignoring guys Smith and Grant who people are quick to write off:
6'2.5" eventually 210 lb Sean Monahan plays a game similar to Nieuwendyk. He may not play like he's huge, but he still has superior reach and physical maturity to slow the game down, and he's
always around the net.
6'0.25"
eventually 200 lb Sam Bennett plays arguably
the heaviest cycle game on the Flames roster. He's absolutely a beast in the corners and has the skill to come out of corners looking to make a play. His game off the rush is actually his biggest weakness right now, not his offensive zone or defensive zone game.
6'3" eventually 215 lb Mark Jankowski looks like a top 6 type forward to me. He's just getting better and better at playing a heavy game using his skill and reach to make hard drives to the net. You almost see shades of a young LeCavalier or Spezza in his game, not to over-hype him though.
6'0" 200 lb Mikael Backlund has to be our most underrated heavy-playing forward. He'll never short-change you in compete and we've already seen him make pretty much every winger he's ever had into a top 6 forward. Maybe he doesn't have the advanced puck skills to make hard drives from outside to in with the puck, but he's more than willing to crash the net. Anyone who calls him "soft" is still living in 2011.
6'5" 225 lb Joe Colborne may not be a first liner, but the guy just completed a season putting up "2nd liner" production. He played the heaviest game of his career in the second half of this season. And while we're conditioned to think of him as non-physical, he does hit quite a bit. I may not like him all that much but even I'll reluctantly admit he showed signs of an effective player.
6'2" 210lb Micheal Ferland is still trying to find his shot at the NHL level but he can cycle the puck, carry the puck with speed, and has shown excellent vision. He's learning to beat NHL goaltenders and get his shots off quicker, but don't forget this is a guy with a
mean wrister who threw up a 47 goal Junior season as a 19 year old, a guy who Flames brass have suggested can be a fifteen to twenty goal guy in this league. Outside of playing heavy on the puck he also plays a physical forechecking game.
6'3", 220 lb Daniel Prybyl is described as being a skilled forward. Once he gets his skating up to about a Sean Monahan level I think we'll see him up. But I don't think they signed him under the impression that he would be a bottom 6 forward.
Do we need more heavy, skilled players,
especially for completing that first line? I would say more bullets in the chamber never hurt. But I'm also not convinced you draft for such a very specific need. That also ignores that guys like Shinkaruk and Frolik, while not the biggest guys, can cycle down low pretty effectively.
Systemically, Treliving is building a team that I envision as quick, heavy, and skilled. It's a slow process, you don't get there by passing up raw talent.
And sometimes you have to trade for a veteran to fill the most specific kind of needs, you can't build your entire team through the draft. How did the Bruins pick up Nathan Horton? They traded a less prime draft pick (15th overall) for him. That's how the Kings picked up Lucic last year. Heck the Panthers acquired Jagr trading a 2nd rounder for him. The Capitals traded Brouwer for TJ Oshie. The Ducks traded Bonino for Kesler. The Stars traded some spare parts for Spezza. The Preds traded Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen and Martin Erat for Filip Forsberg.
The best way to make trades is to have great talent to trade, and great talent to replace the position of strength that might have been traded for a position of weakness.
Also you mentioned Gilmour and Mullen, despite being undersized, were both highly gritty players. Well that's kind of what I see in Clayton Keller (actually, if you read some of his draft profiles, like
this one or
this onelook at who his stylistic comparision is) and Shinkaruk.
Now I'll finish that off with, I am totally cool with the Flames selecting Logan Brown as there seems to be some opinion that his ceiling is very high too and his draft year numbers are actually pretty encouraging. To me picking a high ceiling this high in the draft is first and foremost the priority. A medium ceiling is a waste of a top 6 pick because you're not drafting for next year, you're drafting for 3, 4, 5, 6 seasons down the line and you don't want to end up with a mere role player (a Frolik or such) as the fruits of one of the worst seasons in franchise history.
