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Old 07-04-2020, 04:40 PM   #21
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In fact you can make a pretty good argument what really gave birth to democracy was the black death
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Old 07-04-2020, 04:46 PM   #22
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It's very strange, China is socialist in many areas and capitalist in many areas. Take healthcare for example. A hybrid of public and private healthcare, mostly private. Private meaning paid for or guanxi (personal relationships). Imagine a world here you can scalp tickets to see the doctor. So you've got these massive multi-plex hospitals for the rich and connected and then you have hospitals with nothing in podunk village. This causes severe inequality between the rich and the poor.


I've always said, one of the main thing that holds communism back is crony-ism, which is is opposite of the communist ideology of equality for all.
If the only thing that's holding it back is something that inevitably happens to every place where this system takes hold, maybe it's the system that's creating it.
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Old 07-04-2020, 05:54 PM   #23
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it isnt capitalism that gives rise to democracy its the middle class, it matters not what system you have if you have a large middle class they will demand a say in things and they have the money/property to make it happen
China's middle class will be over 500 million before 2025, but there's little indication of demand for democracy. Actually, I think there are many who view democracy as being worse, partially resulting from how things are going in the West in recent years.

Most people in China typically don't take an interest in politics, even in the middle class.

It has been said that the West has democracy, China has social media. The government tracks trends and is responsive. As long as the government keeps doing a good job, nobody cares about democratic representation.
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Old 07-04-2020, 06:16 PM   #24
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China's middle class will be over 500 million before 2025, but there's little indication of demand for democracy. Actually, I think there are many who view democracy as being worse, partially resulting from how things are going in the West in recent years.

Most people in China typically don't take an interest in politics, even in the middle class.

It has been said that the West has democracy, China has social media. The government tracks trends and is responsive. As long as the government keeps doing a good job, nobody cares about democratic representation.
But that is democracy in truth, a Government mostly doing what its people wants, in some ways its even more democratic
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Old 07-05-2020, 08:28 AM   #25
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China's middle class will be over 500 million before 2025, but there's little indication of demand for democracy. Actually, I think there are many who view democracy as being worse, partially resulting from how things are going in the West in recent years.

Most people in China typically don't take an interest in politics, even in the middle class.

It has been said that the West has democracy, China has social media. The government tracks trends and is responsive. As long as the government keeps doing a good job, nobody cares about democratic representation.
I have to assume most of that is because the government controls education, and tries to control everything they see. So If they don't want their citizenry to take part in politics, or be educated about democracy, they can do a pretty good job of indoctrinating them into that.
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Old 07-05-2020, 10:37 AM   #26
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If the only thing that's holding it back is something that inevitably happens to every place where this system takes hold, maybe it's the system that's creating it.

Not the only thing, one of. And the amount of cronyism and personal relationships is off the charts, not just like any other place.. But there's much more holding it back such as paranoia and misinformation. "We are a perfect society, we can't talk about bad things that happen, we cannot talk about covid or violence or homosexuality or abuse."
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Old 07-05-2020, 11:29 AM   #27
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I have to assume most of that is because the government controls education, and tries to control everything they see. So If they don't want their citizenry to take part in politics, or be educated about democracy, they can do a pretty good job of indoctrinating them into that.
Well, public education systems everywhere are just designed to build citizens that support the country's own system of government. I have a lot of Chinese friends who were educated overseas though, and they are generally still supportive of the Chinese government after years of living in Canada, the U.S., Australia etc.

People just don't bother to talk about politics much in China. Politics is just like the weather, in that you can't change it so you just adapt and get on with things. In day to day Chinese life people have plenty of freedom, and consumer lifestyles in Chinese cities are well developed so people in the middle class feel they have choice about how to spend their time. This is true in even third and fourth tier cities now.

Most members of the middle class don't really care that much about politics in the West either. People care more about having a job, a home, being able to enjoy their life going out with friends or raising their family, going on vacations etc. As long as people have these things to enjoy their lives, they don't care who is in power or how they're governed, and China has been doing a great job of delivering these things for that middle class. People appreciate that their government has made this possible for them, and it certainly has.

These are among the reasons I called CaliPanthersFan's comparison with communist soviet union ridiculous, which it is. People living under the centrally planned economy of the Soviet Union dealt with bare shelves, lineups to get necessities, food shortages, poor infrastructure etc. Those that could get to the West would be amazed at the choice and abundance when walking into a store. This is totally unlike the experience of China's middle class. People from Chinese cities traveling to the West now often have the opposite experience, of feeling the consumer culture here is less developed, with less choice, less convenience and lower quality goods. On top of that, they look around at the issues with drug abuse that are so visible, alcohol abuse that is so visible, gun violence, racial tensions etc. and don't see it as desirable. The handling of COVID doesn't make governments like the US or UK look any better either. Most people care more about these things than they care about whether or not they have the right to vote, and even those who aspire to really get rich are often heading back to China now because they feel they can make plenty of money in China while living in a place that's more comfortable for them.

These are among the reasons I think democracy in the US is so at risk now. Democracy has been so poorly cared for that the middle class is beaten down and insecure. There's such a strong sense that the government is not looking out for the average person's interests that a lot of people would actually be fine with an authoritarian government as long it sorted out their basic pains of day to day life. That's what China already has. Most people feel their lives getting better and the middle class has confidence that the government does a good job taking care of them, so they don't care about democracy.
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Old 07-05-2020, 12:44 PM   #28
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...
These are among the reasons I called CaliPanthersFan's comparison with communist soviet union ridiculous, which it is. People living under the centrally planned economy of the Soviet Union dealt with bare shelves, lineups to get necessities, food shortages, poor infrastructure etc. Those that could get to the West would be amazed at the choice and abundance when walking into a store. This is totally unlike the experience of China's middle class. People from Chinese cities traveling to the West now often have the opposite experience, of feeling the consumer culture here is less developed, with less choice, less convenience and lower quality goods. On top of that, they look around at the issues with drug abuse that are so visible, alcohol abuse that is so visible, gun violence, racial tensions etc. and don't see it as desirable. The handling of COVID doesn't make governments like the US or UK look any better either. Most people care more about these things than they care about whether or not they have the right to vote, and even those who aspire to really get rich are often heading back to China now because they feel they can make plenty of money in China while living in a place that's more comfortable for them.

These are among the reasons I think democracy in the US is so at risk now. Democracy has been so poorly cared for that the middle class is beaten down and insecure. There's such a strong sense that the government is not looking out for the average person's interests that a lot of people would actually be fine with an authoritarian government as long it sorted out their basic pains of day to day life. That's what China already has. Most people feel their lives getting better and the middle class has confidence that the government does a good job taking care of them, so they don't care about democracy.
If this is true, what does that say about the actual people? A nation full of citizens who are contented with their choice of junk that they will ignore egregious human rights violations against millions of their own?

Like, imagine how easy it would be to get rid of those pesky drug abusers and racial tensions in our lives if we were all okay with just rounding up the addicts and indigenous and detaining them in the NWT.

I’m sure it’s more complex than a few paragraphs on a forum. But I’m not willing to excuse a society that will turn its head away from things like the “the repression and systematic abuses of 13 million” minorities on a routine basis because they can buy things.
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Old 07-05-2020, 01:44 PM   #29
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If this is true, what does that say about the actual people? A nation full of citizens who are contented with their choice of junk that they will ignore egregious human rights violations against millions of their own?

Like, imagine how easy it would be to get rid of those pesky drug abusers and racial tensions in our lives if we were all okay with just rounding up the addicts and indigenous and detaining them in the NWT.

I’m sure it’s more complex than a few paragraphs on a forum. But I’m not willing to excuse a society that will turn its head away from things like the “the repression and systematic abuses of 13 million” minorities on a routine basis because they can buy things.
I think you would be surprised with the level of support if you did a poll asking should homeless people be placed in work camps in the North West Territories.

I bet if you phrased the question in the right way you could get Canadians to support residential schools.
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Old 07-05-2020, 01:57 PM   #30
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If this is true, what does that say about the actual people? A nation full of citizens who are contented with their choice of junk that they will ignore egregious human rights violations against millions of their own?

Like, imagine how easy it would be to get rid of those pesky drug abusers and racial tensions in our lives if we were all okay with just rounding up the addicts and indigenous and detaining them in the NWT.

I’m sure it’s more complex than a few paragraphs on a forum. But I’m not willing to excuse a society that will turn its head away from things like the “the repression and systematic abuses of 13 million” minorities on a routine basis because they can buy things.
You have to remember it is a nation of citizens who can in many cases still remember when they had to choose which child got food and which one was left to starve, a nation of citizens who's grandparents can tell them stories of being raped by the Japanese, a nation of citizens that can probably still tell their kids 'I remember the first time I ever saw a car/TV/fridge' as in they were old enough and these things were rare enough it was a memorable event.

To go from that to where China is now in the space of a generation is remarkable, I was born in'1961 when China was going through its last great famine, somewhere between 30 and 40 million starved to death, for that to happen the whole country was in N Korea like malnutrition, of course they are consumers and content with a government that can provide them with what to them are the riches of Croesus
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Old 07-05-2020, 02:43 PM   #31
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It has been said that the West has democracy, China has social media. The government tracks trends and is responsive. As long as the government keeps doing a good job, nobody cares about democratic representation.
And do people freely express themselves on social media? Or does the government "respond" to what it hears after censoring those it doesn't like and throwing dissidents in jail?
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Old 07-05-2020, 11:23 PM   #32
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The Hong Kong protests are having the same effect on some families as some US families have experienced with Trump's rise. I have a few cousins in HK who are very active protestors and their relationships with their parents have been very strained as they aren't supportive of them protesting.
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Old 07-06-2020, 08:49 AM   #33
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Well, public education systems everywhere are just designed to build citizens that support the country's own system of government. I have a lot of Chinese friends who were educated overseas though, and they are generally still supportive of the Chinese government after years of living in Canada, the U.S., Australia etc.

People just don't bother to talk about politics much in China. Politics is just like the weather, in that you can't change it so you just adapt and get on with things. In day to day Chinese life people have plenty of freedom, and consumer lifestyles in Chinese cities are well developed so people in the middle class feel they have choice about how to spend their time. This is true in even third and fourth tier cities now.

Most members of the middle class don't really care that much about politics in the West either. People care more about having a job, a home, being able to enjoy their life going out with friends or raising their family, going on vacations etc. As long as people have these things to enjoy their lives, they don't care who is in power or how they're governed, and China has been doing a great job of delivering these things for that middle class. People appreciate that their government has made this possible for them, and it certainly has.

These are among the reasons I called CaliPanthersFan's comparison with communist soviet union ridiculous, which it is. People living under the centrally planned economy of the Soviet Union dealt with bare shelves, lineups to get necessities, food shortages, poor infrastructure etc. Those that could get to the West would be amazed at the choice and abundance when walking into a store. This is totally unlike the experience of China's middle class. People from Chinese cities traveling to the West now often have the opposite experience, of feeling the consumer culture here is less developed, with less choice, less convenience and lower quality goods. On top of that, they look around at the issues with drug abuse that are so visible, alcohol abuse that is so visible, gun violence, racial tensions etc. and don't see it as desirable. The handling of COVID doesn't make governments like the US or UK look any better either. Most people care more about these things than they care about whether or not they have the right to vote, and even those who aspire to really get rich are often heading back to China now because they feel they can make plenty of money in China while living in a place that's more comfortable for them.

These are among the reasons I think democracy in the US is so at risk now. Democracy has been so poorly cared for that the middle class is beaten down and insecure. There's such a strong sense that the government is not looking out for the average person's interests that a lot of people would actually be fine with an authoritarian government as long it sorted out their basic pains of day to day life. That's what China already has. Most people feel their lives getting better and the middle class has confidence that the government does a good job taking care of them, so they don't care about democracy.
No offense - but you are in a bubble. The vast majority of people in the US are comfortable. But people in the US (and Canada, etc) are allowed to protest and get their views out. As such, people just can't bury their heads in the sand and pretend their country is perfect and not in need of improvement.

If the US controlled the media and strictly monitored social media like they do in China - the George Floyd video wouldn't have gotten out and this whole movement doesn't happen.

There's a reason all this started when cell phones and social media became prevalent. Now a random person can take a video easily and share it to the world easily. If the government controls all that - and these videos don't get out - none of this happens.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:28 AM   #34
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If this is true, what does that say about the actual people? A nation full of citizens who are contented with their choice of junk that they will ignore egregious human rights violations against millions of their own?

Like, imagine how easy it would be to get rid of those pesky drug abusers and racial tensions in our lives if we were all okay with just rounding up the addicts and indigenous and detaining them in the NWT.

I’m sure it’s more complex than a few paragraphs on a forum. But I’m not willing to excuse a society that will turn its head away from things like the “the repression and systematic abuses of 13 million” minorities on a routine basis because they can buy things.
Tell me about the average middle class Canadian who didn't take to the streets and focused on things in their own life while the residential school system was going on. What does it say about them that they even had the vote that could have been used to change that system?

Do you think it's coincidental that the murder of George Floyd erupts in nationwide protests in the US at a time when there is massive unemployment, a pandemic, businesses shutting down and an general sense of getting left behind among the middle class? Would the same protests be erupting over racial injustices if main street was doing great and people were all busy with work?

Do your neighbors step outside each day and think about how the land where they live is theirs now as a result of the genocide of tens of millions of indigenous people, with survivors who actually were pushed into spaces that keep them out of sight and who still face discrimination? Do they spend each day fighting to correct this, or do they spend each day trying to improve the lives of their own family?

Do you think average people in China are just people trying to deal with paying mortgages, raising their kids well, saving for retirement and having social and family life, like your neighbors are, or are they immoral monsters?
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:30 AM   #35
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Tell me about the average middle class Canadian who didn't take to the streets and focused on things in their own life while the residential school system was going on. What does it say about them that they even had the vote that could have been used to change that system?

Do you think it's coincidental that the murder of George Floyd erupts in nationwide protests in the US at a time when there is massive unemployment, a pandemic, businesses shutting down and an general sense of getting left behind among the middle class? Would the same protests be erupting over racial injustices if main street was doing great and people were all busy with work?

Do your neighbors step outside each day and think about how the land where they live is theirs now as a result of the genocide of tens of millions of indigenous people, with survivors who actually were pushed into spaces that keep them out of sight and who still face discrimination? Do they spend each day fighting to correct this, or do they spend each day trying to improve the lives of their own family?

Do you think average people in China are just people trying to deal with paying mortgages, raising their kids well, saving for retirement and having social and family life, like your neighbors are, or are they immoral monsters?
On the same scale? Clearly not. However protests happen in the US all the time, freely. I agree with your general point though, on the whole, the average Chinese citizen is not to blame and economic improvement is an easy distraction from other problems. The problem lies at the top because the right to information about their situation is being denied from them because the CCP knows that once economic improvement becomes the norm, the people might want something else.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:35 AM   #36
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And do people freely express themselves on social media? Or does the government "respond" to what it hears after censoring those it doesn't like and throwing dissidents in jail?
Do you realize I'm not advocating for the system? I'm just describing it.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:35 AM   #37
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I'm more interested in what happens to the average Chinese citizen when there is no longer economic improvement. China can't realistically have +7% GDP growth every year and workers always getting raises. Over time, that bubble has to burst and there needs to be layoffs, what happens then? Or do they just lie and say it's +7% no matter what?


Also I think the measuring the middle class in China is inaccurate. The bottom limit is $3000 per year, that's only $10 a day, and cost of living in China is not getting any cheaper.
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Old 07-06-2020, 09:36 AM   #38
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Tell me about the average middle class Canadian who didn't take to the streets and focused on things in their own life while the residential school system was going on. What does it say about them that they even had the vote that could have been used to change that system?

Do you think it's coincidental that the murder of George Floyd erupts in nationwide protests in the US at a time when there is massive unemployment, a pandemic, businesses shutting down and an general sense of getting left behind among the middle class? Would the same protests be erupting over racial injustices if main street was doing great and people were all busy with work?

Do your neighbors step outside each day and think about how the land where they live is theirs now as a result of the genocide of tens of millions of indigenous people, with survivors who actually were pushed into spaces that keep them out of sight and who still face discrimination? Do they spend each day fighting to correct this, or do they spend each day trying to improve the lives of their own family?

Do you think average people in China are just people trying to deal with paying mortgages, raising their kids well, saving for retirement and having social and family life, like your neighbors are, or are they immoral monsters?
People for the most part just didn't know about the residential school issue I would assume. I had no idea about it until all the facts started coming out in the last 5-10 years.

But the major turning point in all of this is videos of these things happening. People are willing to give the police/government the benefit of the doubt on the facts they give them. But when they can see it for themselves - opinions change.
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Old 07-06-2020, 10:14 AM   #39
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The modern day Chinese Communist Party is the closest thing we have ever seen to the Nazis and governments are keen to appease them instead of stopping them.
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Old 07-06-2020, 10:36 AM   #40
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I'm more interested in what happens to the average Chinese citizen when there is no longer economic improvement. China can't realistically have +7% GDP growth every year and workers always getting raises. Over time, that bubble has to burst and there needs to be layoffs, what happens then? Or do they just lie and say it's +7% no matter what?


Also I think the measuring the middle class in China is inaccurate. The bottom limit is $3000 per year, that's only $10 a day, and cost of living in China is not getting any cheaper.
Underrated comment. Life is always good, and politics secondary when times are good. That is why the CCP has spend the majority of their energy ensuring continued economic growth for decades. Did people care deeply about politics in Calgary in 2006-2013? Not in large part as the majority was doing very well, and it was about the endless growth in standard of living.

I would say the top of mind for CCP has to be a recession or worse and avoiding at all costs. Make no mistake with the way the CCP has been behaving to the world, and the way the world is reacting a contraction is coming. I just saw Britain is banning Huawei by end of summer, leaving our gov't to duck in behind that. India is moving away from China over their aggression. Supply chains will be reworked to move more away from China dependence.

Lastly, as much as I hear about how great Chinese tech is, a lot is based on American technology. Much of that is banned now. Good luck building a replacement to Android and getting anyone outside China to use it. Plus the state of the art processors to make high end phones are produced in Taiwan, that is based on American tech. End of day you have a middle performing phone with a copy cat OS. yikes.

Anyways, I believe there are coming repercussions to the Chinese economy. It might not be pretty, and you will see lots of people start to care about politics once again. Which would be very unfavorable for the current ruling party. A country fighting internally and externally would be disastrous.
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