[Signing] Flames sign Josh Leivo (1yr, $875k)

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Maybe, but we’ll never know unless he gets a shot. He has the wheels and will apart from his skill.

I would agree, but unless he has a very strong showing, it is going to be tough to crack the line up. Bottom of the line has a strong mix of 2 way players, top 2 line don't have any room. He either has to show strong 2 way play or some serious offence. Needs a strong camp hopefully he will get some serious looks! He probably doesn't have much of a shot this season.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I feel like this is Dube's replacement on the 3rd line. Dube is going to be a top line player this season.

Feeling aside, this doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Who is Dubé bumping from the top line? Part of the rationale in having Lindholm there is because he can take strong side draws. He’s also the best two way presence on that line. Can Dubé fill that need? I’m not convinced. He’s not bumping Monahan or Gaudreau. Big ask to have Dube line up against other teams top line/top shut down units. I really like the player but ‘top line forward’ seems to fly in the face of every player projection I’ve read.

The other thing to be said here is Dubé and Bennett seemed to have developed some chemistry together. Why mess with that? It worked. They were demolishing thevJets and Stars middle rotations.

Move Lucic to the 4th to play with Ryan, those two had success together as well prior to the bubble.

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Mangiapane
Dubé Bennett Lievo
Lucic Ryan Simon/Nordstrom

It’s going to be a shortened season, don’t get cute.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Just make sure Phillips gets a good look in the top 9. I think he’d look great with Bennett and Dube.

Never understood the 'I hope he gets a good look' argument. Or 'give this guy a chance'.

Spots are earned. If Phillips wants to crack the lineup, be one of the 12 best forwards.

Adding Simon and Leivo doesn't mean that a guy like Phillips won't get a chance, it means that the bar is now raised as to what it will take to earn that chance.

A weeks ago, Phillips was looking at having to beat out Rinaldo for a spot. Now he has to beat out Simon. And that is a good thing for the Flames. Now the bar is set at Simon, and if Phillips is better, then great. If not, we have Simon. That is better than having the bar at Rinaldo, is it not?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

This signing feels like the last roster move to me. With this one I don't feel like tre is looking for any more trades.

I doubt this is the case.

He may not make any more moves (trades), but guaranteed he'll be knee deep in exploring many trade options before puck drops in January.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Never understood the 'I hope he gets a good look' argument. Or 'give this guy a chance'.

Spots are earned. If Phillips wants to crack the lineup, be one of the 12 best forwards.

Adding Simon and Leivo doesn't mean that a guy like Phillips won't get a chance, it means that the bar is now raised as to what it will take to earn that chance.

A weeks ago, Phillips was looking at having to beat out Rinaldo for a spot. Now he has to beat out Simon. And that is a good thing for the Flames. Now the bar is set at Simon, and if Phillips is better, then great. If not, we have Simon. That is better than having the bar at Rinaldo, is it not?

Exactly.

We see it up North when a spot is given just assumed to be given to a young player in August without a solid replacement available.

You don't want young players forcing easy decisions, they need to force tough ones.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Never understood the 'I hope he gets a good look' argument. Or 'give this guy a chance'.

Spots are earned. If Phillips wants to crack the lineup, be one of the 12 best forwards.

"one of the 12 best forwards" is subjective though.

Last year, Ward often thought Zac Rinaldo was one of the 12 best forwards, ahead of Jankowski, Czarnik, etc.

Heck, Czarnik was on a point streak in the top six when he got hurt, and when he gets back we waived him, yet still couldn't find his way back into a game the rest of the year.

Phillips could well be one of the twelve or even nine best forwards, and still not get a chance.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

"one of the 12 best forwards" is subjective though.

Last year, Ward often thought Zac Rinaldo was one of the 12 best forwards, ahead of Jankowski, Czarnik, etc.

Heck, Czarnik was on a point streak in the top six when he got hurt, and when he gets back we waived him, yet still couldn't find his way back into a game the rest of the year.

Phillips could well be one of the twelve or even nine best forwards, and still not get a chance.

If he is one of the 9 best forwards, he will get a chance

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

"one of the 12 best forwards" is subjective though.

Last year, Ward often thought Zac Rinaldo was one of the 12 best forwards, ahead of Jankowski, Czarnik, etc.

Heck, Czarnik was on a point streak in the top six when he got hurt, and when he gets back we waived him, yet still couldn't find his way back into a game the rest of the year.

Phillips could well be one of the twelve or even nine best forwards, and still not get a chance.

Czarnik was ranked 12th to 14th in most underlying numbers last year. He had the puck go his way for a couple of games and that was that.

He could certainly be kept up ahead of Rinaldo though, but he seemed like a needs to play top nine or else kind of player, and he wasn't that.

[howard_the_duck]

What I love about Leivo is his shot. Always stood out to me and if given a role in the top 9 he fills a need on this team. Sneaky good pickup and a guy that could move up in our lineup quick IMO.

[Enoch Root]

I really like the Nordstrom singing because the Flames not only needed depth, they got a guy that plays hard, has speed, and is a good PKer. All things they needed. So... good.

Then the Simon signing... a guy that plays the right side, plays along the boards, and can play up the lineup. A very good addition. And the two together really solidify the bottom half of the lineup. At league minimum. Excellent.

But Leivo, that is a whole different matter. He isn't a bottom 6 guy, he is a middle 6er. He fills out the roster at a whole different level. And again, near league minimum for cost. Just crazy good.

I like to look at the roster in tiers - players can be top 6, middle 6, bottom 6, and replacement. And of course, some straddle those lines, or are able to slide up or down. This is what I felt the forward group looked like, before the signings:

Top 6: Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm
Middle 6: Backlund, Mangiapane, Bennett, Dube
Bottom 6: Ryan, Lucic
Replacement: Rinaldo, Phillips, Robinson

If any of the replacement guys are filling out your lineup, then it is not real strong. But adding the first two signings solidified the bottom of the order:

Top 6: Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm
Middle 6: Backlund, Mangiapane, Bennett, Dube
Bottom 6: Ryan, Lucic, Nordstrom, Simon
Replacement: Rinaldo, Phillips, Robinson

Now players are more 'where they should be', and you've got 12 guys above replacement level.

But then things really change with Leivo, because he pushes other guys down:

Top 6: Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm
Middle 6: Backlund, Mangiapane, Leivo, Bennett, Dube
Bottom 6: Ryan, Lucic, Nordstrom, Simon
Replacement: Rinaldo, Phillips, Robinson

Now you've got 9 guys who are top 6 or middle 6 players. And Ryan, Lucic and Simon can all slide up if needed. Now you've got real depth.

I know that people want to see changes at the top - and who knows, we still might see them. But even if we don't, this team is much improved. There is WAY more depth to the lineup now, which will take some pressure off the top line. It will also allow Ward to mix things up if he desires. The Flames can now roll 4 lines relentlessly.

Add a significant upgrade between the pipes, and I am excite!

[Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

"one of the 12 best forwards" is subjective though.

Last year, Ward often thought Zac Rinaldo was one of the 12 best forwards, ahead of Jankowski, Czarnik, etc.

Heck, Czarnik was on a point streak in the top six when he got hurt, and when he gets back we waived him, yet still couldn't find his way back into a game the rest of the year.

Phillips could well be one of the twelve or even nine best forwards, and still not get a chance.

I don't follow the Heat so no visual evidence of anything
But Phillips isn't really that productive there, nevermind the NHL. And he is tiny, smaller than Johnny kind of tiny.

What am I missing with him? Seems like he would be the definition of a long shot.

[868904]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Feeling aside, this doesn’t seem to make much sense.

Who is Dubé bumping from the top line? Part of the rationale in having Lindholm there is because he can take strong side draws. He’s also the best two way presence on that line. Can Dubé fill that need? I’m not convinced. He’s not bumping Monahan or Gaudreau. Big ask to have Dube line up against other teams top line/top shut down units. I really like the player but ‘top line forward’ seems to fly in the face of every player projection I’ve read.

The other thing to be said here is Dubé and Bennett seemed to have developed some chemistry together. Why mess with that? It worked. They were demolishing thevJets and Stars middle rotations.

Move Lucic to the 4th to play with Ryan, those two had success together as well prior to the bubble.

Gaudreau Monahan Lindholm
Tkachuk Backlund Mangiapane
Dubé Bennett Lievo
Lucic Ryan Simon/Nordstrom

It’s going to be a shortened season, don’t get cute.

I really don't want to see Gaudreau and Monahan together anymore. They are two perimeter guys and two of the worst defensive players on the team. I'm sick of seeing them hemmed in their own zone even with a really good defensive player like Lindholm flanking them.

Maybe you can live with being hemmed in their own zone when they are producing at a high clip off the rush, but after last season and the recent playoffs, I'm kind of done with them together.

I'd like to see this:

Tkachuk-Monahan-Dube/Ryan

I know both Tkachuk and Monahan are two slower guys, but they should play well on an offensive cycle as two bigger guys and one is a playmaker and the other a shooter. Dube and Ryan provide that line with speed and a forecheck. Dube provides more offense while Ryan provides more defensive conscience and also helps with the faceoffs. Who the right winger is depends on the game situation and opponent.

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Mangiapane/Leivo

You put two bulldogs in Lindholm and Mangiapane with Gaudreau, but also two very skilled finishers. Mangiapane's game is pretty similar to Lindholm in that he can finish with skill but also doesn't mind the dirty work. You need two guys on a line to do the dirty work, it can't just be one. Leivo also works here if they want some more size. When you have Gaudreau and Monahan together, there is no offensive cycle and pressure because they both can't do the dirty work.

Nordstrom/Simon-Backlund-Leivo/Ryan/Mangiapane

A bunch of two way forwards that can form a shutdown line but also provide match up advantages against other team's bottom 6. The penalty killers are also on this line so in a game with a lot of special teams, you aren't throwing your top lines out of sync as much when you've got your penalty killers playing together. So many different options.

Lucic-Bennett-Dube/Ryan/Nordstrom

This is the energy line. You need to set the tone at the beginning of the game, you put them out. You need to change the momentum during a game, you put them out. They also can play a regular shift and hopefully produce some offense. In a sense, the key player on this line, is the guy who rotates in and out, that being Dube or Ryan.

We can all argue about which line combination is best, but what Tre has done is provide Ward with so many options and combinations to suit any team or play any type of game.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by Red

I don't follow the Heat so no visual evidence of anything
But Phillips isn't really that productive there, nevermind the NHL. And he is tiny, smaller than Johnny kind of tiny.

What am I missing with him? Seems like he would be the definition of a long shot.

Having followed Phillips since his draft year there is a player here of that I am certain; he had a tough injury set back last year right when he was starting to catch fire which was a hard set-back for him but I think he will continue to progress here this up-coming season.

First pro season

GP 65 G 13 A 25 PTS 38

Second pro season

GP 38 G 15 A 18 PTS 33

Pro-Rated to 65 GP

GP 65 G 26 A 31 PTS 57

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by 868904

I really don't want to see Gaudreau and Monahan together anymore. They are two perimeter guys and two of the worst defensive players on the team. I'm sick of seeing them hemmed in their own zone even with a really good defensive player like Lindholm flanking them.

Maybe you can live with being hemmed in their own zone when they are producing at a high clip off the rush, but after last season and the recent playoffs, I'm kind of done with them together.

I'd like to see this:

Tkachuk-Monahan-Dube/Ryan

I know both Tkachuk and Monahan are two slower guys, but they should play well on an offensive cycle as two bigger guys and one is a playmaker and the other a shooter. Dube and Ryan provide that line with speed and a forecheck. Dube provides more offense while Ryan provides more defensive conscience and also helps with the faceoffs. Who the right winger is depends on the game situation and opponent.

Gaudreau-Lindholm-Mangiapane/Leivo

You put two bulldogs in Lindholm and Mangiapane with Gaudreau, but also two very skilled finishers. Mangiapane's game is pretty similar to Lindholm in that he can finish with skill but also doesn't mind the dirty work. You need two guys on a line to do the dirty work, it can't just be one. Leivo also works here if they want some more size. When you have Gaudreau and Monahan together, there is no offensive cycle and pressure because they both can't do the dirty work.

Nordstrom/Simon-Backlund-Leivo/Ryan/Mangiapane

A bunch of two way forwards that can form a shutdown line but also provide match up advantages against other team's bottom 6. The penalty killers are also on this line so in a game with a lot of special teams, you aren't throwing your top lines out of sync as much when you've got your penalty killers playing together. So many different options.

Lucic-Bennett-Dube/Ryan/Nordstrom

This is the energy line. You need to set the tone at the beginning of the game, you put them out. You need to change the momentum during a game, you put them out. They also can play a regular shift and hopefully produce some offense. In a sense, the key player on this line, is the guy who rotates in and out, that being Dube or Ryan.

We can all argue about which line combination is best, but what Tre has done is provide Ward with so many options and combinations to suit any team or play any type of game.

Has Monahan ever scored a goal from the perimeter? I would have to think 95% of his goals are scored from 5-10 feet out.

Anyway, there will be tinkering, there always is.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

I don't follow the Heat so no visual evidence of anything
But Phillips isn't really that productive there, nevermind the NHL. And he is tiny, smaller than Johnny kind of tiny.

What am I missing with him? Seems like he would be the definition of a long shot.

Prior to his injury, Phillips had 14 goals 16 assists (30pts) in 28 games, which I believe led the team. That's productive any way you look at it.

Size is an overstated issue. He competes hard and knows how to play a 200 foot game.

I don't put much stock into his lack of production after the return from injury, a lot of factors at play.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Has Monahan ever scored a goal from the perimeter? I would have to think 95% of his goals are scored from 5-10 feet out.

Anyway, there will be tinkering, there always is.

The answer is yes. But I agree that Monahan is a slot man who needs to play centre.

[868904]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Has Monahan ever scored a goal from the perimeter? I would have to think 95% of his goals are scored from 5-10 feet out.

Anyway, there will be tinkering, there always is.

Monahan is usually in the high slot, that's his preferred place to stand and shoot. That's not really in the slot as the defensemen don't usually come out that far and if they do, they usually only come out partially so as not to commit.

In that way, it's a "perimeter" as it's not right in the area where he's going to get crosschecked or have to "battle" too hard.

The problem in recent years is that the opposition has figured this out and is allowing Gaudreau to run around the perimeter as he can't score from there and is allowing him to pass to Monahan while they just collapse in front of him so he can't get a good shot.

With Tkachuk, the opposition can't cheat out too much to cover Monahan, because Tkachuk will take the puck right to the net and crash or try one of his between the leg goals. This should open Monahan up for more clean looks.

I know that Monahan comes from a lacrosse background and isn't "scared" of taking punishment, but I think teams have just figured out how to defend him and Gaudreau.

[868904]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Prior to his injury, Phillips had 14 goals 16 assists (30pts) in 28 games, which I believe led the team. That's productive any way you look at it.

Size is an overstated issue. He competes hard and knows how to play a 200 foot game.

I don't put much stock into his lack of production after the return from injury, a lot of factors at play.

Flames have put a big emphasis on hockey sense. Guys like Mangiapane, Dube, Phillips, Zavgorodny, Petterson, Zary, Kerins, Francis, Philps are all on the small side but all have high hockey sense.

It's the one thing that can overcome all other physical attributes such as skating or size.

I also think Phillips will play in the NHL, I don't think he'll be a star, but I think he'll be a good top 6 complimentary player. A Josh Leivo type and that's great asset value for a low round draft pick. It would be better to pair him with a couple of bigger linemates though. I'd like to see him on a line with Ruzicka and Pospisil next season in the AHL.

[timbit]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Prior to his injury, Phillips had 14 goals 16 assists (30pts) in 28 games, which I believe led the team. That's productive any way you look at it.

Size is an overstated issue. He competes hard and knows how to play a 200 foot game.

I don't put much stock into his lack of production after the return from injury, a lot of factors at play.

Upon his return from injury, Phillips was -8 with a goal and 2 assists in 10 games.

What were the “ a lot of factors at play”?

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by 868904

Monahan is usually in the high slot, that's his preferred place to stand and shoot. That's not really in the slot as the defensemen don't usually come out that far and if they do, they usually only come out partially so as not to commit.

In that way, it's a "perimeter" as it's not right in the area where he's going to get crosschecked or have to "battle" too hard.

The problem in recent years is that the opposition has figured this out and is allowing Gaudreau to run around the perimeter as he can't score from there and is allowing him to pass to Monahan while they just collapse in front of him so he can't get a good shot.

With Tkachuk, the opposition can't cheat out too much to cover Monahan, because Tkachuk will take the puck right to the net and crash or try one of his between the leg goals. This should open Monahan up for more clean looks.

I know that Monahan comes from a lacrosse background and isn't "scared" of taking punishment, but I think teams have just figured out how to defend him and Gaudreau.

The problem for me is just a little bit more than that, They are not physically impact players and drive the play less and less in recent years. Gaudreau shies away from contact while Monahan who had been hampered with injuries, still doesn't play a physical game. I get that the Flames are building a team that can play all through the line up, but agree those 2 while offensive players are too easy to play against and not built for the playoffs.