2015/2016 Trade Speculation and Rumors v2

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

I agree, Murray is nigh-untouchable at this point. But... that's also when his value is at its peak. What would you give for him at this point?

I'd be prepared to offer the 6th overall pick, Shinkaruk and MacDonald.

So we get a good goalie in front of a bad team? To many holes in our roster to not make better use of the 6th overall.

[ResAlien]

Problem that is awesome to have: we've got two great goalies!

Problem that sucks to have: we've got zero great goalies!

It's a lot like the Family Guy "boat/mystery box" argument. Gillies is the mystery box. We need a boat. Go get us a goddam boat.

[Poe969]

IF we didn't have a first rounder and the pens asked for Bennett for Murray, do you make the trade because we need a goalie? No, you don't and you don't even think about it. The 6 OA pick is going to be a top 6 forward on this team and this team badly needs another top 6 forward more than a goalie.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Problem that is awesome to have: we've got two great goalies!

Problem that sucks to have: we've got zero great goalies!

It's a lot like the Family Guy "boat/mystery box" argument. Gillies is the mystery box. We need a boat. Go get us a goddam boat.

The secret is to get about that meets your needs and won't break your bank. Some of the posters in this thread are suggesting we look for an aircraft carrier when all we need is something to float around Glenmore reservoir. Others are suggesting we look for a skiff but pay luxury yacht prices. Seriously, a 6th overall pick, Shinkaruk and MacDonald for a kid with 13 career starts on a hot streak in the playoffs. Unreal. Can't wait for training camp.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by Poe969

what about trading 6 OA for Hammond? Wasn't he one of the best goalies in the world last year? For all we know, Murray could come crashing down to earth next season. Even for Murray, I don't think I'd give that pick.

Murray has pedigree, Hammond did not. There's a huge difference there. Murray's been doing this at every level of hockey, Hammond was a flash in the pan.

The Flames have zero goalies right now. It's a pretty unique scenario.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Poe969

what about trading 6 OA for Hammond? Wasn't he one of the best goalies in the world last year? For all we know, Murray could come crashing down to earth next season. Even for Murray, I don't think I'd give that pick.

Not even remotely the same thing as goalies like Mrazek, Murray or Gibson. Not only are these goalies younger than Hammond was when he had his miracle run, but have consistently put up solid to elite numbers for years at all levels of hockey including the NHL.

Even Hammonds career AHL numbers are bleak at best. Guys like Mrzaek, Murray and Gibson have much better track records and pedigrees. Sorry, but that's a ridiculous comparison.

[howard_the_duck]

As others have stated, it'd be absolutely ludicrous to part with 6th OA to get a goalie. Cart waaaayyy before the horse here.

For all we know a more controlled defensive structure as introduced by our new coach could be as much of a cure to the goaltending woes as anything. No need to have a knee-jerk reaction and part with an asset that was the product of a long season of losing.

[Poe969]

Murray has 13 NHL starts. 13. Sure, he's had good stats in the minors but that doesn't mean anything, lots of guys had great stats in the minors and turn into nothing special. Giving up the #6 pick for a guy with 13 NHL starts is crazy.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

As others have stated, it'd be absolutely ludicrous to part with 6th OA to get a goalie. Cart waaaayyy before the horse here.

For all we know a more controlled defensive structure as introduced by our new coach could be as much of a cure to the goaltending woes as anything. No need to have a knee-jerk reaction and part with an asset that was the product of a long season of losing.

One could also argue that is precisely why you use the 6th to get a goalie. It's a currency you wouldn't have had otherwise, and can potentially address your team's biggest hole. I wouldn't want them using it on a veteran net minder, but Murray is the perfect age to fit in with what Calgary is building.

Add in a new coach with a better system and someone like Murray could solve a lot of this team's problems real quick.

I honestly haven't watched a lot of junior hockey this year so what little I know of the top ten draft eligible players, I know from YouTube scouting only. So m relying on the pros to tell me what I need to know, and what they are sayings after the top three, this is an extremely average draft class.

If you're ever going to make a move like trading a sixth pick for someone like Murray, this sounds like the right year to do it in.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Murray has 13 NHL starts. 13. Sure, he's had good stats in the minors but that doesn't mean anything, lots of guys had great stats in the minors and turn into nothing special. Giving up the #6 pick for a guy with 13 NHL starts is crazy.

The recency bias is something to be wary of too. How many times have you seen a guy have a hot playoff run, only to come crashing back down to earth the next season?

Hello, Fernando Pisani. Murray has much more pedigree of course, but it's crazy to talk about parting with 6th OA for a guy like this where he might have been worth a prospect and a 2nd a little over a month ago to many Flames fans.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

One could also argue that is precisely why you use the 6th to get a goalie. It's a currency you wouldn't have had otherwise, and can potentially address your team's biggest hole. I wouldn't want them using it on a veteran net minder, but Murray is the perfect age to fit in with what Calgary is building.

Add in a new coach with a better system and someone like Murray could solve a lot of this team's problems real quick.

You don't see goalies selected in the top 10 anymore, so it's an exorbitant price to pay if you'd part with the 6th OA pick.

Murray is fantastic, but you'd be buying at peak value. Just not good asset management if you ask me.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

The 6th pick seems like an exorbitant price for almost any goaltender in the league. I want no part in that kind of trade.

Goalies just aren't worth that.

Yet a goaltender seems to be arguably the most important position in the sport as the position can single handedly elevate or sink a team. The Habs are a playoff team with Price and a lottery team without him. The Flames went from playoffs to bottom five largely due to poor play at the position. The Dallas Stars would probably also disagree that a solid starting goaltender is not worth a 6th overall pick.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Murray has 13 NHL starts. 13. Sure, he's had good stats in the minors but that doesn't mean anything, lots of guys had great stats in the minors and turn into nothing special. Giving up the #6 pick for a guy with 13 NHL starts is crazy.

Splitting hairs, but he actually has 22 NHL starts. Regardless, if the Flames scouts view Murray as a long term NHL starter than absolutely you do that deal. It's not about his stats. He could have bad stats in the minors for all I care. It's about his style, his demeanor, how he thinks the game, his ability. The potential is there and is already being realized. People laughed at the Martin Jones trade last summer too and now look at the Sharks.

The impact of a really good goalie can make a team so much better.

Like it or not young players with huge potential are very expensive to acquire. It makes no difference if it's Murray or if it's Bennett.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bax

Splitting hairs, but he actually has 22 NHL starts. Regardless, if the Flames scouts view Murray as a long term NHL starter than absolutely you do that deal. People laughed at the Martin Jones trade last summer too and now look at the Sharks.

The impact of a really good goalie can make a team so much better.

Like it or not young players with huge potential are very expensive to acquire. It makes no difference if it's Murray or if it's Bennett.

Doesn't mean that the 6th overall isn't an overpayment though. If you are trading a top 10 pick you better be getting a sure thing.

Jones, Lehner, & Talbot who were good young goalies that had promising stats were all traded for a much smaller package than the 6th overall pick. Their trade returns were comparable to our 35th overall pick + another 2nd/3rd round pick, that is the currency the Flames should be using to get a good young goalie who is stuck behind an established starter.

Unless you are getting a goalie who is a sure thing to be elite (I would argue none of Mrazek, Murray, or Pickard are that) then you shouldn't move the top 10 pick.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yet a goaltender seems to be arguably the most important position in the sport as the position can single handedly elevate or sink a team. The Habs are a playoff team with Price and a lottery team without him. The Flames went from playoffs to bottom five largely due to poor play at the position. The Dallas Stars would probably also disagree that a solid starting goaltender is not worth a 6th overall pick.

It's not so much in my mind if it's worth it, versus is it necissary. Something tells me based on the market, we likely don't need to part with that pick to get goaltending. But how patient are people willing to be? As you point out goaltending is by far the most important position, could make a huge difference next season. But do you overpay to ensure you have goaltending in place next season? Maybe.

For me, three things need to happen for the Flames to become a true contender:
- Our youngest members of our core need more time to bake (Mony, Johnny, Bennett and Hamilton)
- We need to add up front, specifically on the wing.
- We need goaltending

Simply based on time for the baking, and our cap situation not really fixing it's self until after next season, all three of these things won't be able to happen, and simply can't happen (time piece) for next season. I think fans need to be patient, we aren't going to fix everything this offseason, and there also isn't a need to. This team's contending years are still a couple of seasons away. So let's not waste assets because we are simply impatient.

[StrykerSteve]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

The recency bias is something to be wary of too. How many times have you seen a guy have a hot playoff run, only to come crashing back down to earth the next season?

Hello, Fernando Pisani. Murray has much more pedigree of course, but it's crazy to talk about parting with 6th OA for a guy like this where he might have been worth a prospect and a 2nd a little over a month ago to many Flames fans.

I don't think we're comparing apples to apples here. Pisani was a plug that happened to have a lucky run of pucks bouncing off him or being in the right place at the right time. It came out of nowhere and was completely out of character term for him.

Ignore the 13 starts, Murray has been a stud prospect for a long time now. It was only because he played for Pittsburgh that he wasn't more of a known asset. Ever since he was first mentioned in the same breath as Calgary, people have actually learned more about him. There's a lot to like about this guy and how he plays. Has delivered at every level and dominated in the AHL.

The fact that he's now doing the same thing in the NHL, in the playoffs no less, is pretty awesome, but not even all that surprising, looking at where he's come from to get here.

Don't get me wrong, I don't even think Pitt will entertain trading him at this point, but a few months ago, the approximation of a 2nd and a prospect was probably realistic. Right now though, Pitt would certainly have upped the asking price and the suggestions in here are simply reflective of that fact.

It's my opinion that Calgary needs a solid goalie more than anything else. I'm terrified they'll bring in an aging stopgap, Gillies doesn't pan out, and we are forced to endure a decade of mediocrity, wasting Our young players' best years, just like we did with Iggy.

If trading a 6th pick in an average draft prevents that apocalyptic vision from coming true, I'm all for it.

But above all else, I'm on vacation this week, it's the offseason and I have too much time on my hands.

[bax]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Doesn't mean that the 6th overall isn't an overpayment though. If you are trading a top 10 pick you better be getting a sure thing.

Jones, Lehner, & Talbot who were good young goalies that had promising stats were all traded for a much smaller package than the 6th overall pick.

Unless you are getting a goalie who is a sure thing to be elite (I would argue none of Mrazek, Murray, or Pickard are that) then you shouldn't move the top 10 pick.

That's the point though. The Flames employee people to make the judgment whether or not Murray is they real deal. If they think that he is, then you do the deal. It's a risk, but there's also a risk in drafting Tkatchuk, Dubois, Keller, Nylander, Brown, or whoever.

Also, Jones was 25, Lehner was 24, and Talbot was 27.

Murray is 21. He's looking like the next Price/Holtby. The opportunity to trade for a player with that potential is rare. Also, none of Jones, Lehner, or Talbot did was Murray is doing right now and I really don't think they have the potential to. Maybe Jones

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

I don't think we're comparing apples to apples here. Pisani was a plug that happened to have a lucky run of pucks bouncing off him or being in the right place at the right time. It came out of nowhere and was completely out of character term for him.

Ignore the 13 starts, Murray has been a stud prospect for a long time now. It was only because he played for Pittsburgh that he wasn't more of a known asset. Ever since he was first mentioned in the same breath as Calgary, people have actually learned more about him. There's a lot to like about this guy and how he plays. Has delivered at every level and dominated in the AHL.

The fact that he's now doing the same thing in the NHL, in the playoffs no less, is pretty awesome, but not even all that surprising, looking at where he's come from to get here.

Don't get me wrong, I don't even think Pitt will entertain trading him at this point, but a few months ago, the approximation of a 2nd and a prospect was probably realistic. Right now though, Pitt would certainly have upped the asking price and the suggestions in here are simply reflective of that fact.

It's my opinion that Calgary needs a solid goalie more than anything else. I'm terrified they'll bring in an aging stopgap, Gillies doesn't pan out, and we are forced to endure a decade of mediocrity, wasting Our young players' best years, just like we did with Iggy.

If trading a 6th pick in an average draft prevents that apocalyptic vision from coming true, I'm all for it.

But above all else, I'm on vacation this week, it's the offseason and I have too much time on my hands.

Pisani comparison was only to illustrate how a hot streak shouldn't cloud judgment. Regardless of pedigree, Murray has a small sample size under his belt to warrant a top 10 pick.

Early indications are Murray is going to be a fantastic goaltender, so I'd jump for joy if the Flames could get their hands on him. But we're also talking about a guy that only a couple of months ago could hypothetically have been had in a return for Kris Russell, or so you saw in many trade proposals from armchair GM's around here.

I'd personally rather part with lesser assets (2nd round picks + prospect) for a guy like Andersen. I'm fully on board with getting a goaltender and using draft picks as currency, just not a top 10 pick.

[bax]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Pisani comparison was only to illustrate how a hot streak shouldn't cloud judgment. Regardless of pedigree, Murray has a small sample size under his belt to warrant a top 10 pick.



Early indications are Murray is going to be a fantastic goaltender, so I'd jump for joy if the Flames could get their hands on him. But we're also talking about a guy that only a couple of months ago could hypothetically have been had in a return for Kris Russell, or so you saw in many trade proposals from armchair GM's around here.



I'd personally rather part with lesser assets (2nd round picks + prospect) for a guy like Andersen. I'm fully on board with getting a goaltender and using draft picks as currency, just not a top 10 pick.

If Murray could have been had for that cheap a couple of months ago then we would have him already. Rumors were that Calgary was after him, but Pittsburgh declined, probably because they knew Murray was a stud.

I understand your logic, but just look five years ahead. Say Murray doesn't develop into the next Price or Holtby, but still a top 10 goaltender. Are we really going to be upset that we missed out on a 50-60 point forward from the draft?

Why give up assets for an average goaltender like Andersen? I understand the cost of acquisition is lower, but in my opinion so is the asset. Sure he's more proven, but he's been playing behind a stacked Ducks team. I'd rather go for the slam dunk, then settle for average. I believe that it's these kinds of risks that a GM must make to create a championship team.

Regardless, I don't think the pens move Murray at all now as he's looking like a Conn Smyth favorite.

There was a time when people thought Montreal should have kept Halak over Price.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Pisani comparison was only to illustrate how a hot streak shouldn't cloud judgment. Regardless of pedigree, Murray has a small sample size under his belt to warrant a top 10 pick.

Early indications are Murray is going to be a fantastic goaltender, so I'd jump for joy if the Flames could get their hands on him. But we're also talking about a guy that only a couple of months ago could hypothetically have been had in a return for Kris Russell, or so you saw in many trade proposals from armchair GM's around here.

I'd personally rather part with lesser assets (2nd round picks + prospect) for a guy like Andersen. I'm fully on board with getting a goaltender and using draft picks as currency, just not a top 10 pick.

Right, but trade proposals around here are from homer Flames fans. If you went to HF trades or HF Penguins, you would never see those kinds of proposals agreed upon. They would be criticized and laughed at by not only Pens fans, but also fans of other teams looking in from the outside