Let's Talk About: Abortion

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not really true, that makes it sound like the wild west.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada

Most provinces have their own regulations as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aborti...oughout_Canada

Apologies, you are correct. I meant to say not federally or provincially regulated.

[GrrlGoalie33]

I'm a woman and am 95% pro choice. The 5% of me that is against it is where a woman/couple chooses to use abortion as a form of birth control.

In my late teens, I knew a woman who was in a "friends with benefits" relationship with a guy who didn't like the feel of condoms, so they regularly had unprotected sex. that I know of, she got pregnant twice by him and had an abortion both times as neither of them wanted to be parents at that point.

That being said, it should still be a decision between one or both parents to make, not a government mandated or religious ruling. I would rather see unwanted pregnancies terminated rather than the child be born and then neglected or abused.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Frankster

I'm a woman and am 95% pro choice. The 5% of me that is against it is where a woman/couple chooses to use abortion as a form of birth control.

I have heard this basic statement before but I don't quite understand it. If your view is that a fetus is not a human being and therefore does not deserve rights and protection, then why should it matter if someone is using abortion as a form of birth control? Seems to me that it should be no more morally significant than having your tonsils removed.

I would rather see unwanted pregnancies terminated rather than the child be born and then neglected or abused.

Why are those the only two options? There are many people that would love to adopt a baby and provide it with a loving home.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I have heard this basic statement before but I don't quite understand it. If your view is that a fetus is not a human being and therefore does not deserve rights and protection, then why should it matter if someone is using abortion as a form of birth control? Seems to me that it should be no more morally significant than having your tonsils removed.



Why are those the only two options? There are many people that would love to adopt a baby and provide it with a loving home.

In my opinion, it's about making a responsible decision before it comes to pregnancy. In my example, both parties knew they were not ready to be parents. They should have used some forms of birth control to reduce or eliminate the risk of pregnancy rather than "oh well, if we get pregnant, we can always have an abortion.

I've not looked into any numbers to support my theory, but it seems that there are enough unwanted/unloved kids already on this planet, there isn't the need to add more when a woman/couple knows abortion is the right path for them.

How do you feel about when a female is raped and becomes pregnant only because of that rape?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Ark2

This is abject nonsense. If you are pro-choice, I would very much like to understand your position. Actually understanding the position of those that you disagree with tends to be a good strategy in life. A poor strategy, however, is using silly strawman arguments such as the above to define the pro-life position. In the hopes that you can understand your claim that restricting abortion is simply about men controlling women's bodies.

This is not about controlling women, it is about protecting the unborn.

My views have never wavered. It's not my body so it's none of my business if she's doesn't want the baby.

Let me ask you a question, how do you feel about the 11 rape victim being forced to go through with the pregnancy?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I have heard this basic statement before but I don't quite understand it. If your view is that a fetus is not a human being and therefore does not deserve rights and protection, then why should it matter if someone is using abortion as a form of birth control? Seems to me that it should be no more morally significant than having your tonsils removed.

It may not be a moral decision. Likely it comes down to a woman's health issue. An abortion scrapes the lining of the uterus and can create scar tissue, making future implantation much more difficult. Long term this can make it impossible for a woman to get pregnant at a time when she chooses to start a family.

Why are those the only two options? There are many people that would love to adopt a baby and provide it with a loving home.

Why do you think it is okay to force a woman to carry a baby to term that she does not want? Do you have any idea what a woman goes through while carrying a baby? The hormones and mood swings. The extra weight on their bodies. The havoc having something growing inside you and pushing up against other organs. The expansion of their private areas. Having a baby is no walk in the park, so why would a woman want to subject themselves to that process if they were just going to give the baby up after the fact.

THIS is an argument that I don't get. The expectation that it is fine to expect a woman to go through months of discomfort and changes when it is not something she wants in the first place. This is crazy.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Frankster

In my opinion, it's about making a responsible decision before it comes to pregnancy. In my example, both parties knew they were not ready to be parents. They should have used some forms of birth control to reduce or eliminate the risk of pregnancy rather than "oh well, if we get pregnant, we can always have an abortion.

I still am not sure that I understand your point on this one. When you say "making a responsible decision before it comes to pregnancy" I assume that you mean taking measures that would limit the potential of an unwanted baby being born. Isn't that what abortion does? Ensures that an unwanted baby is not brought into this world? Seems to me that if you don't believe a fetus is a human life, then one form of birth control would be morally equivalent to another.

I've not looked into any numbers to support my theory, but it seems that there are enough unwanted/unloved kids already on this planet, there isn't the need to add more when a woman/couple knows abortion is the right path for them.

I'm not so sure of that. In Canada for instance, the birth rate has been declining, and as a result, we are having to look at increasing our annual immigration numbers. Don't get me wrong, I am pro-immigrant and by no means do I think having more enter the country is a bad thing, but it certainly gives me pause when it comes to the idea that we don't need more people in this country. I think of my aunt and uncle who were on an adoption wait list for years before they were able to adopt. I also think about my wife and I, trying to have a child. If we are unable to, we would love to adopt, but the idea of having to wait 3-4 years is pretty depressing.

How do you feel about when a female is raped and becomes pregnant only because of that rape?

I am against the death penalty, so in cases such as this, I believe that the rapist should spend the rest of his life in prison. At the same time, I believe that an unborn baby is a human being that is entitled to rights and protections and that does not change regardless of how it was conceived. I do not say this lightly, as I understand that bearing a child, even under the most ideal and consensual circumstances, is an incredible sacrifice that a woman is making. In instances of rape, I can only imagine what it is like. Having said that, I do believe that the right to life is the most important right and cannot be invalidated because of rape.

In the interest of full disclosure, while I consider myself pro-life, I have not been able to determine when I think life begins. I am certain that it is before birth, but not certain that it begins at conception. These days, I find myself aligning with the Georgia in that life begins once a heartbeat has been detected, but I realize that that has its shortcomings as well.

[GrrlGoalie33]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I still am not sure that I understand your point on this one. When you say "making a responsible decision before it comes to pregnancy" I assume that you mean taking measures that would limit the potential of an unwanted baby being born. Isn't that what abortion does? Ensures that an unwanted baby is not brought into this world? Seems to me that if you don't believe a fetus is a human life, then one form of birth control would be morally equivalent to another.







I'm not so sure of that. In Canada for instance, the birth rate has been declining, and as a result, we are having to look at increasing our annual immigration numbers. Don't get me wrong, I am pro-immigrant and by no means do I think having more enter the country is a bad thing, but it certainly gives me pause when it comes to the idea that we don't need more people in this country. I think of my aunt and uncle who were on an adoption wait list for years before they were able to adopt. I also think about my wife and I, trying to have a child. If we are unable to, we would love to adopt, but the idea of having to wait 3-4 years is pretty depressing.







I am against the death penalty, so in cases such as this, I believe that the rapist should spend the rest of his life in prison. At the same time, I believe that an unborn baby is a human being that is entitled to rights and protections and that does not change regardless of how it was conceived. I do not say this lightly, as I understand that bearing a child, even under the most ideal and consensual circumstances, is an incredible sacrifice that a woman is making. In instances of rape, I can only imagine what it is like. Having said that, I do believe that the right to life is the most important right and cannot be invalidated because of rape.



In the interest of full disclosure, while I consider myself pro-life, I have not been able to determine when I think life begins. I am certain that it is before birth, but not certain that it begins at conception. These days, I find myself aligning with the Georgia in that life begins once a heartbeat has been detected, but I realize that that has its shortcomings as well.

We will in this lifetime not be on the same side of this debate, so I’m going to respectfully bow out of this conversation here.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by New Era

It may not be a moral decision. Likely it comes down to a woman's health issue. An abortion scrapes the lining of the uterus and can create scar tissue, making future implantation much more difficult. Long term this can make it impossible for a woman to get pregnant at a time when she chooses to start a family.



Why do you think it is okay to force a woman to carry a baby to term that she does not want? Do you have any idea what a woman goes through while carrying a baby? The hormones and mood swings. The extra weight on their bodies. The havoc having something growing inside you and pushing up against other organs. The expansion of their private areas. Having a baby is no walk in the park, so why would a woman want to subject themselves to that process if they were just going to give the baby up after the fact.

THIS is an argument that I don't get. The expectation that it is fine to expect a woman to go through months of discomfort and changes when it is not something she wants in the first place. This is crazy.

I believe that my response to Frankster above addresses most of your points, but to respond to the bolded: because the alternative involves ending a human life, which I view as the more heinous violation of human rights.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

My views have never wavered. It's not my body so it's none of my business if she's doesn't want the baby.

I am sorry to hear that. Having said that, my main purpose in posting that scenario was to demonstrate that opposition to abortion is not about controlling a woman's body.

Let me ask you a question, how do you feel about the 11 rape victim being forced to go through with the pregnancy?

I have addressed this in another post.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Apologies, you are correct. I meant to say not federally or provincially regulated.

Sorry, I'm confused, because it is regulated, under the health care act, as well as provinces having their own regulations. What did you mean to say?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ark2

I believe that my response to Frankster above addresses most of your points, but to respond to the bolded: because the alternative involves ending a human life, which I view as the more heinous violation of human rights.

Is an abortion OK if it means the mother will certainly die?
What if it's just a 60% chance the mother will die?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Why are those the only two options? There are many people that would love to adopt a baby and provide it with a loving home.

There are, and I fully believe adoption could effectively remove most abortion cases outside of those preformed for health, rape, etc, reasons. I'm not being very specific because it would need to be figured out properly.

The issue however is that the adoption process is not very efficient and tends to turn more people away than get people to adopt more kids. Plus, it is not really presented as an option to the mother that does not want to keep her child.

To me it is an effective compromise. We protect the unborn (at some point most people agree there is human life) by allowing them exactly that, life...and we create an easier process for the mother to give up the child for adoption, therefore she is effectively removed from needing to care for the child, something she doesn't want to do in the first place.

Sad, really that it doesn't happen more often.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sorry, I'm confused, because it is regulated, under the health care act, as well as provinces having their own regulations. What did you mean to say?

My understanding is that there are no legal obstacles to abortion in Canada. Perhaps I am wrong? I read through the links you posted but didn't find anything, so if I missed it, please point me in the right direction.

[Ark2]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is an abortion OK if it means the mother will certainly die?
What if it's just a 60% chance the mother will die?

I am in favour of abortion in the case where the mother's life is at risk.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Ark2

My understanding is that there are no legal obstacles to abortion in Canada. Perhaps I am wrong? I read through the links you posted but didn't find anything, so if I missed it, please point me in the right direction.

I guess it depends what you mean "legal obstacles". No, I don't think the police can stop you from having an abortion, but that's different than "not regulated". It would be like saying you couldn't dispose of hazardous waste in Canada, but you can, if you follow the regulations. So by telling people abortion is unregulated in Canada, and you get a reaction of disbelief, well that reaction is well placed because you are speaking falsehoods.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Azure

There are, and I fully believe adoption could effectively remove most abortion cases outside of those preformed for health, rape, etc, reasons. I'm not being very specific because it would need to be figured out properly.

The issue however is that the adoption process is not very efficient and tends to turn more people away than get people to adopt more kids. Plus, it is not really presented as an option to the mother that does not want to keep her child.

To me it is an effective compromise. We protect the unborn (at some point most people agree there is human life) by allowing them exactly that, life...and we create an easier process for the mother to give up the child for adoption, therefore she is effectively removed from needing to care for the child, something she doesn't want to do in the first place.

Sad, really that it doesn't happen more often.

While there is a wait list for adoption you are aware that about 1 in 6 fetus are aborted in Canada. I don’t believe there is continuous demand for 80,000 babies.

Also while there is a backlog for heathy babies there is a surplus of older children.

[OutOfTheCube]

I'm pro-choice insofar as you only get to choose once.

Are you choosing to have consensual, knowingly unprotected sex? That was the choice, and I believe any potential consequence of that (pregnancy) should always be protected.

Was the sex or protection not your choice? Things such as rape, a partner deceiving you to force pregnancy, etc.? Then I support that you now get to make a choice with what to do with potential consequence (pregnancy).

[GGG]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

I'm pro-choice insofar as you only get to choose once.

Are you choosing to have consensual, knowingly unprotected sex? That was the choice, and I believe any potential consequence of that (pregnancy) should always be protected.

Was the sex or protection not your choice? Things such as rape, a partner deceiving you to force pregnancy, etc.? Then I support that you now get to make a choice with what to do with potential consequence (pregnancy).

If you choose to jaywalk and get hit by a car should a hospital save you?

[OutOfTheCube]

Originally Posted by GGG

If you choose to jaywalk and get hit by a car should a hospital save you?

Ah, the old 'false equivalence'. Your scenario so obviously excludes the most important element of the abortion debate (the life of the new baby) that it's laughable you considered it as a comparable.