2020/2021 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Alright, how about a claim that we are doing the same thing over and over, and expect different results. I think that this team’s window to win was built around Gio’s current contact. It seems to have closed without much success. I base the window on the contract structure. Every player contract on the Flames, except Andersson and Markstrom expires within 3 years. The deals given to Tkachuk and Mangiapane were bridge deals to keep the window open. Once they’re over and they need to get paid you need to transition to younger cheaper players.

A rebuild is far from a sure thing. This team demonstrated that by trying to accelerate their rebuild, and/or holding on to assets for too long. Fans calling for a rebuild simply don’t see the answers within the organization, and don’t think it can be accomplished via trade. Everyone in this city remembers starting the previous rebuild off the wrong foot, by getting terrible return for Iginla, Regher, Bouwmeester, letting Kipper retire etc. Then completely missing on multiple first round picks.

This time around I have a lot more confidence in the scouting staff. I think you won’t be drafting Klimchuk, Jankowski, Smith, Kenzig etc. in the position they were picked. You won’t be trading multiple picks in search of a stop gap goalie. Anyways, I think that a rebuild is the best choice for this team right now.

They haven’t really done the same thing though have they?

There have been coaching changes, player movement throughout the last 7 years. I truly believe this summer we see some massive moves like we did in 2018.

Johnny is 7 years younger than Iggy was when he was traded. Tkachuk is 12 years younger. Gio is the only graybeard on the team in a prominent role.

Look at our top 6 forwards

Johnny (28) Lindholm (26) Tkachuk (23)
Dube (23) Monahan (27) Mangiapane (25)

Top 4 D
Hanifin (25) Tanev (32)
Gio (38) Andersson (25)

Goalie
Markstrom (31)

I would be interested to know of an example where a team with a top end that young tore it all down and started over?

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

They haven’t really done the same thing though have they?

There have been coaching changes, player movement throughout the last 7 years. I truly believe this summer we see some massive moves like we did in 2018.

Johnny is 7 years younger than Iggy was when he was traded. Tkachuk is 12 years younger. Gio is the only graybeard on the team in a prominent role.

Look at our top 6 forwards

Johnny (28) Lindholm (26) Tkachuk (23)
Dube (23) Monahan (27) Mangiapane (25)

Top 4 D
Hanifin (25) Tanev (32)
Gio (38) Andersson (25)

Goalie
Markstrom (31)

I would be interested to know of an example where a team with a top end that young tore it all down and started over?

The only one I can kind of recall was when Philly traded both Richards and Carter in their prime and did a mini reset.

[GhostCookie]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Alright, how about a claim that we are doing the same thing over and over, and expect different results. I think that this team’s window to win was built around Gio’s current contact. It seems to have closed without much success. I base the window on the contract structure. Every player contract on the Flames, except Andersson and Markstrom expires within 3 years. The deals given to Tkachuk and Mangiapane were bridge deals to keep the window open. Once they’re over and they need to get paid you need to transition to younger cheaper players.

A rebuild is far from a sure thing. This team demonstrated that by trying to accelerate their rebuild, and/or holding on to assets for too long. Fans calling for a rebuild simply don’t see the answers within the organization, and don’t think it can be accomplished via trade. Everyone in this city remembers starting the previous rebuild off the wrong foot, by getting terrible return for Iginla, Regher, Bouwmeester, letting Kipper retire etc. Then completely missing on multiple first round picks.

This time around I have a lot more confidence in the scouting staff. I think you won’t be drafting Klimchuk, Jankowski, Smith, Kenzig etc. in the position they were picked. You won’t be trading multiple picks in search of a stop gap goalie. Anyways, I think that a rebuild is the best choice for this team right now.

Rebuilds have certain steps:
1. Use pieces that wont fit/cant wait for the rebuild in deals to get rebuild friendly assets like picks/prospects.
2. Accept that your performance will suck while developing current prospects and continuing to get future pieces. Being a salary dump team is fine if the other team is sending some future with it.
3. Continue with the rebuild, even when you get the first flashes of success. Focus on good deals and signings that build the longest possible compete window.
4. When you have got all the talent in place to be a competitor, this is the time to make a splash in FA or through trade for that one piece that can you make you a threat to make conference finals or even a cup run.

Teams that fail at rebuilds usual fail by not starting step one until there are no assets left to deal, slowing the process down, or (sometimes and) bypassing step 3. They get that conference final appearance and then sell important pieces in the off season to get big names, or oversign/commit to players that have only had one good season. Then they get stuck back at mediocrity. If you fail at 3, you'll be stuck spinning your wheels trying to get to step 4, but it's really just more of what got you into the rebuild to begin with.

Proof of that is 3 hours north, where every time they see any success, they shot themselves in the foot with bad signings and miserable trades.

[ComixZone]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1413572406598197248

Didn't hear the clip myself.

We have our Kucherov!...?

[Bonded]

Is that another surgery for Monahan? I thought his hip one was complete.

[Toonage]

^ Yeah, last I read he was already working out

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

https://twitter.com/user/status/1413572406598197248

Didn't hear the clip myself.

We have our Kucherov!...?

Yep! Put him on LTIR for the regular season, use his cap space to sign someone else and have him 110% healthy for the playoffs. If he’s healed a few months too early just make him wait an extra couple months to get in “game shape”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

The only one I can kind of recall was when Philly traded both Richards and Carter in their prime and did a mini reset.

But they did that to give Bryzgalov a huge contract and sign Jagr. They made the playoffs in the second round the year after those deals went through.

[Major Major]

That's pretty big news if true. There has to be some medical reason for him to have not had the surgery yet.

I also find it funny that he dropped this on Edmonton radio the same day he was on in Calgary where he kept his streak alive of not saying a thing about the flames.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Major Major

That's pretty big news if true. There has to be some medical reason for him to have not had the surgery yet.

I also find it funny that he dropped this on Edmonton radio the same day he was on in Calgary where he kept his streak alive of not saying a thing about the flames.

How about a year and half backlog of non-emergency surgeries?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Is that another surgery for Monahan? I thought his hip one was complete.

Yeah there was a video of him working out with Lucic and his kid supposedly post surgery.

[Erick Estrada]

Is there a 2nd surgery he needs? Seems like a bit of a bombshell and surprising that nobody in the local media would have picked up on it.

[GioforPM]

All of the May 12 stories said his surgery was to be the following week.

[Macho0978]

Another rumour I guess we can’t assume it’s true but this is another sign this team needs to rebuild. Not sure how this team can compete next year. Unless he’s gone all season but I doubt he misses that much time

His trade value is very low and probably will be until he can prove he can play a full year. Connor brown is looking very good right now

[GioforPM]

Not sure if this was posted before:

https://cardiaccane.com/2021/07/03/c...an-make-sense/

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah unless something else happened I’m not sure that Friedman quote is right.

Been no indication that he would need another surgery and be out to start the year.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I don't know why you're being so indignant about it. You could say the same about a rebuild. They've done one recently, it got us to exactly where we are. But oh, it'll be different this time. Rebuilds don't result in playoff success more often than they do. But oh, oh, it'll be different for us. This time, it will be different!

There are teams that have gone from a position like ours to cup contenders without tearing it down, and there are teams that tore it down and later became cup contenders. There's also plenty more teams that haven't in either case.

There's zero reason to have any confidence that your opinion on the right path forward is correct. It might be completely stupid and lead to an extra five years of even worse results with the highs remaining the same. But you want change, I get it, change is exciting. Change is fun. I think we can all agree with that, whether or not huge change is always effective.

Seriously? They did one recently?? I'm not sure when, they started one and then rushed it and screwed things up and got what we have now. They've had the same core of guys for how long and have got the same results? A rebuild does not guarentee results, but it might. Having this team doesn't get results and it won't.

There is 0 reason to have confidence in my opinion...well ya there is, because it's an opinion. But let's go with fact then: this current team has enjoyed 0 success in the past few years. They won a playoff round a few years ago and were then spanked. They came second overall one year and got destroyed in the playoffs. Other than that...not really much else. So are you suggesting that there is a better chance that this team suddenly realizes their potential and becomes a contender or a better chance the do what they've been doing year after year?

0 guarantees. Zero. If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting. Since this team has not been getting success, I think it's time to do something different just to simply get something different. I'm willing to bet this team (unless major MAJOR changes are made) will be a bubble playoff team at best, will have likely gave up future assets in a "win now" move that gets them nowhere and will be drafting between 11-15. If they do a rebuild, the only real difference will be they get futures for selling off the current core and they'll get a better draft pick.

It really is just all opinions. I'm of the opinion that this team is not good enough and I'm not buying the "this time will be different" and then the same results. I would rather the team admit they were wrong by gambling on this current core and trying a rebuild. That would at least give us hope that in the future things will be different and they might be good.

[Vinny01]

The start of the 2018/2019 season the flames had acquired via their own pick or trade 5 players picked in the top 6 between 2013-2016. That is the equivalent of 5 years of tanking. Lindholm, Monahan, Bennett, Hanifin, Tkachuk were all consensus picks at their spot as well. I am sorry but that is a rebuild. The Canes were not patient with Lindholm and Hanifin I could only imagine how good that team would look with those 2 considering there is a good chance they have nothing left when Hamilton walks.


What are people expecting on the next rebuild? 7-10 years of sucking? I just don’t see how the vocal rebuild crowd on this forum will have the patience for that?

[Poe969]

So instead of rebuilding, you're saying they traded for high drafted players and that's just like a rebuild? That...what?

How's this one: in the past 10 years, the Flames have made the playoffs 4 times and have won only one round. So that's the equivalent of 10 years with only one series win. OR it's like making it to the second round (and then losing) 10 times out of 100 years!

[Buff]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I know the story. What I challenge is that Yzerman changing his game is why Detroit suddenly became good, and was able to break through and win cups.

Yzerman could have changed his game, but without the supporting cast it would have been irrelevant.

Did it help? Sure. But that whole thing gets way too much credit for Detroit's success.

Personally I think adding a second elite center that was a Selke winner himself in Fedorov, a perennial Norris candidate in Lidstrom, Shanahan, the rest of the russian 5, and better goaltending from Vernon and Osgood is what won Detroit the cup.

With that supporting cast they probably still win if Yzerman is a 140 point offensive minded Center too.

And a players best offensive years were always their mid-twenties. Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic all had their best offensive season before turning 26.

And as I said Eichel had great defensive metrics this year (but I know you will ignore that because its a stat that is irrelevant because you said so).

You single out the addition of Fedorov. Sergei Fedorov joined the team in 1990-91. Lidstrom, another key member of the team was a rookie in 91-92. They were a strong team from about 91-92 and on, always tinkering and adding depth to keep improving. The key addition for their first cup was trading Primeau and Coffey for Shanahan.

Yes, Bowman got Yzerman to change how he played. It wasn't just Yzerman who bought into Bowman's plan. The team wouldn't do it if their top scorer and captain wasn't going to.