11-12-2015, 10:59 AM
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#61
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sylvan Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
Back 1999, Canada took on about 5000 Kosovar refugees. Most stayed in military barracks until they returned home. My GF's family sponsored a couple and the child in their home at the time.
With the Syrians it is a little different though because I doubt that most of them are going home any time soon if ever. This is a bonafide resettlement. It won't be easy, but it is the right thing to do.
Back in the 1960, 70s and 80s, Canada settled many people from around the world escaping war and dictatorships. It wasn't easy then either and there was some ghettoization and dissent among some of the communities, but this is a better country for it in the long run.
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See what I wrote below Flames Addition.
To me this is about setting them up for success. Some might be able to walk of the plane into society, great! I reckon that there are also those that might struggle. This is a way of helping. Also, there is nothing to say we can't keep the facilities at the base open once these people move off. That way it will be easier for them to know where to go to continue to get help.
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Just ignore me...I'm in a mood today.
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11-12-2015, 10:59 AM
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#62
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime
I hate to be the guy to bring this up, or ask this question, but when Europe (as well as most domestic media outlets) have stopped referring to the Syrians as refugees long ago, why are we suddenly changing the language from 'migrant' once it is decided that we are bringing 25K into Canada?
It is highly unlikely that we will be seeing the idyllic small family arriving here, as we saw with the Vietnamese and Iraqis. Up to 75% of the people entering Europe are men in their 20s, either fleeing conscription or seeking economic migration. Most of the small families that we are imagining are back home in Syria.
We are also looking at Canada as a whole, when we know that although we could use immigration to places like Winnipeg and St. John, most of the Syrians are going to go to Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver as quickly as they can. Our most expensive cities. The same way poorer countries in Europe were skipped in favour of the wealthy.
None of the flow of refugees are headed to Africa or other countries in the Middle East, which would seem to indicate that immediate safety isn't the primary concern of the people leaving. We are delving into a situation that we do not understand, simply because we want to do the traditional 'Canadian' thing.
The reason that the homeless and disenfranchised already in Canada has been brought up on multiple occasions is because for decades no one could find the political will to help them. When it took less than half a year to find that will to help people engaged in a very complicated migration situation, on another continent.
What would happen if Canada said that it would only take families? Or accepted mass migration only into communities that need the increased population? These things would help Canada, and would help the refugees. Do the cries of 'curtailing freedom' apply to people that arn't yet citizens? How many refugees would decline to come if they couldn't go to Toronto? What would be the outcry if we didn't take single males?
Are the refugees desperate enough to accept reasonable terms to their arrival, or would they balk? Would Canadians rage against curtailing anyone's freedom of movement?
I realize that this post is probably going to get hit hard, but I think that these are the kinds of discussions that we should be having as opposed to talking about snow.
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So lets pretend for a second that you had to flee a country, but still had some choice in where you were heading. It's going to be terrible no matter what because you are leaving a war zone where your government has been killing its own citizens. So why wouldn't you head to the countries where there appear to be the best opportunities? I can guarantee you that is exactly what I would want to do.
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11-12-2015, 11:08 AM
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#63
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Franchise Player
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I am more curious on the demographics of these refugees. Are they really going to be young families?
Or 20 something year old males that seem to be the majority of these migrants?
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11-12-2015, 11:09 AM
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#64
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slava
So lets pretend for a second that you had to flee a country, but still had some choice in where you were heading. It's going to be terrible no matter what because you are leaving a war zone where your government has been killing its own citizens. So why wouldn't you head to the countries where there appear to be the best opportunities? I can guarantee you that is exactly what I would want to do.
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If I had a young family, I would go to the first safe port, if I felt that our lives were in danger. If I was alone, I would go to the fourth safe port, where there were those nice theatres with stadium seating and layered popcorn.
I think that is why there is such an imbalance toward single males in this migration, because 'want' is taking the place of 'need'. We should be seeing a huge migration of young families, like in every other war zone we have seen, but this one is different in it's configuration.
This is nothing like previous refugee situations that we have seen in the past.
__________________
"We don't even know who our best player is yet. It could be any one of us at this point." - Peter LaFleur, player/coach, Average Joe's Gymnasium
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11-12-2015, 11:11 AM
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#65
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First Line Centre
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I'm all for helping refugees in times like these. But I was in total disagreement with the way it became an election issue and the various parties promises to bring in a certain number by X date.
Given the huge logistical issues, processing issues, and ensuring that every refugee gets the right support from the government, this is one promise I hope the Liberals can forfeit if needed. I hope they don't try to push for their arbitrary number if the goal seems unrealistic, impossible, or flat out detrimental to the lives of refugees.
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11-12-2015, 11:14 AM
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#66
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime
If I had a young family, I would go to the first safe port, if I felt that our lives were in danger. If I was alone, I would go to the fourth safe port, where there were those nice theatres with stadium seating and layered popcorn.
I think that is why there is such an imbalance toward single males in this migration, because 'want' is taking the place of 'need'. We should be seeing a huge migration of young families, like in every other war zone we have seen, but this one is different in it's configuration.
This is nothing like previous refugee situations that we have seen in the past.
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Do you have some data on the % young male vs family composition of the refugees? I haven't seen anything credible and outside of the debunked trains full of men pictures that were from years ago haven't really seen any discussion on it.
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11-12-2015, 11:15 AM
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#67
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Draft Pick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slava
So lets pretend for a second that you had to flee a country, but still had some choice in where you were heading. It's going to be terrible no matter what because you are leaving a war zone where your government has been killing its own citizens. So why wouldn't you head to the countries where there appear to be the best opportunities? I can guarantee you that is exactly what I would want to do.
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I think the vast majority go to neighboring countries.
Turkey is hosting like 2.1 million Syrian Refugees.
Ethiopia/Kenya are hosting combined 1.2 million African refugees.
http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/country.php?id=224
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e483986.html
http://www.unhcr.org/pages/49e483a16.html
Hopefully those refugees who come to Canada are not abusing the system and work hard once they arrive.
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11-12-2015, 11:17 AM
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#68
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sylvan Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
Do you have some data on the % young male vs family composition of the refugees? I haven't seen anything credible and outside of the debunked trains full of men pictures that were from years ago haven't really seen any discussion on it.
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http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php
Although I am not a UN fan.
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/str...rian-refugees/
(I can't speak to the validity of this source)
Quote:
The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees — which refers refugees for resettlement in other countries — says there are more than 4 million registered Syrian refugees. Its figures on the demographic makeup of refugees is based on available data on the 2.1 million who were registered by the UNHCR in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon. (Another 1.9 million Syrian refugees were registered by the Government of Turkey, and more than 24,000 were registered in North Africa.)
UNHCR’s data show that 50.5 percent of refugees are women. Females age 18 to 59 make up 23.9 percent of the refugees, while males in that age group make up 21.8 percent.
Even younger males — age 12 to 17 — represent 6.5 percent of refugees, while females that age are 6.1 percent. The majority of refugees — 51.1 percent — are under age 17, including 38.5 percent who are younger than 12 years old. These numbers were as of Sept. 6.
We have seen a different set of UNHCR numbers cited on a few conservative websites — figures for refugees and migrants who have tried to enter Europe by crossing the Mediterranean Sea. There have been more than 400,000 such “sea arrivals” in 2015, and 51 percent are Syrian. The rest have come mainly from nine other countries. Most of these refugees and migrants have been men — 72 percent — but these are not figures on Syrian refugees or even solely the 200,000-some Syrians who have been willing to take some type of boat to reach Europe by sea.
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__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Just ignore me...I'm in a mood today.
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11-12-2015, 11:20 AM
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#69
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime;5501885[B
]If I had a young family, I would go to the first safe port, if I felt that our lives were in danger.[/B] If I was alone, I would go to the fourth safe port, where there were those nice theatres with stadium seating and layered popcorn.
I think that is why there is such an imbalance toward single males in this migration, because 'want' is taking the place of 'need'. We should be seeing a huge migration of young families, like in every other war zone we have seen, but this one is different in it's configuration.
This is nothing like previous refugee situations that we have seen in the past.
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You're seeing this though. Families are trying to make their way from north Africa to Europe and beyond. So they're getting out however they can, but then making the decision to try to get somewhere where there are better opportunities available. That makes complete sense to me as an outsider who hopefully never has to make these decisions.
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11-12-2015, 11:28 AM
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#70
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Franchise Player
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Always happy to ask a question and be proven that things are better than they seem at the surface. It makes me leery of anything that's going on where all we see all smiling politicians, posing like martyrs, telling us how we are all so wonderful for the thing that they have committed all of us to.
__________________
"We don't even know who our best player is yet. It could be any one of us at this point." - Peter LaFleur, player/coach, Average Joe's Gymnasium
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11-12-2015, 11:28 AM
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#71
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappy
I'm all for helping refugees in times like these. But I was in total disagreement with the way it became an election issue and the various parties promises to bring in a certain number by X date.
Given the huge logistical issues, processing issues, and ensuring that every refugee gets the right support from the government, this is one promise I hope the Liberals can forfeit if needed. I hope they don't try to push for their arbitrary number if the goal seems unrealistic, impossible, or flat out detrimental to the lives of refugees.
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As much as we like to think that all these refugees are fleeing ISIS, that is only half true. The migrations really accelerated once the Western bombing missions picked up. Being collateral damage due to the actions of the good guys wasn't necessarily a better option than being killed or forced into military action by ISIS.
The decision to take on refugees should have been made simultaneously with the decision to take on combat roles in Syria, and the logistics should have been worked on from day one. It's too bad that it had to become an election issue for all the parties to make a commitment (the CPC ended up virtually matching what the Liberals offered).
If you can't afford the costs to take on refugees, then you really can't afford to be in the conflict period. I just hope that Russia is willing to take in as many now that they are pretty much corralling them out of Syria( of course they won't).
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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11-12-2015, 11:37 AM
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#72
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
As much as we like to think that all these refugees are fleeing ISIS, that is only half true. The migrations really accelerated once the Western bombing missions picked up. Being collateral damage due to the actions of the good guys wasn't necessarily a better option than being killed or forced into military action by ISIS.
The decision to take on refugees should have been made simultaneously with the decision to take on combat roles in Syria, and the logistics should have been worked on from day one. It's too bad that it had to become an election issue for all the parties to make a commitment (the CPC ended up virtually matching what the Liberals offered).
If you can't afford the costs to take on refugees, then you really can't afford to be in the conflict period. I just hope that Russia is willing to take in as many now that they are pretty much corralling them out of Syria( of course they won't).
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I disagree. The vast majority of refugees into Europe from Syria are coming via Turkey. They were already contained in camps in Turkey, that were not being bombed.
It seems to be just an issue of time. After spending several years in a refugee camp and realizing it's likely a long term thing, people just want out and to start an actual life. Quite frankly, I don't blame them. Coming to the realization that you might be in the camp for another 5 years and unable to start a career or family would be pretty devastating.
Western bombing really has nothing to do with it. The great influx to Europe began this summer. That was almost a year after US bombing started and before Russian bombing started.
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11-12-2015, 12:21 PM
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#73
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Lifetime Suspension
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Hmmmmmmm
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Actually just rented my basement to some Syrian refugees. They seem like great people. The Catholic Churches are doing a great job.
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11-12-2015, 02:31 PM
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#74
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Calgary
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Maybe these refugees can notice the deficiency in the Calgary shawarma/donair/kebab market because other than Jimmy's, it's just ok.
The last time we took a lot of refugees in we got pho even though I'm not big on it.
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11-12-2015, 02:43 PM
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#75
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Nanaimo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zethrynn
there are programs in canada for those thousands of people. it is called welfare.
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Do you realize how hard it is to actually hard it is to qualify for welfare now? The last reform Harpers government made to E.I. and Welfare made it extremely difficult to qualify for support.
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11-12-2015, 04:45 PM
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#76
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by combustiblefuel
Do you realize how hard it is to actually hard it is to qualify for welfare now? The last reform Harpers government made to E.I. and Welfare made it extremely difficult to qualify for support.
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I could be wrong but isn't welfare a provincial thing?
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11-12-2015, 10:31 PM
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#77
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
I am more curious on the demographics of these refugees. Are they really going to be young families?
Or 20 something year old males that seem to be the majority of these migrants?
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I just had a thought, perhaps a naive uninformed thought... maybe it's a positive sign to be embraced that these 20 something year old males are the majority flocking to Europe (et al) from Syria instead of the families (assuming that the males are indeed actually the majority)? These young men's alternative options seem to be between:
1.) fighting against the U.S.A. (for Assad);
2.) joining the psychotic, head-lopping ISIS;
3.) joining the U.S.A. supported rebel groups (and being dropped like a bad habit and thrown under the bus at the drop of a dime) and;
4.) bleeping off to Europe (etc.)... I know what I would do...
I know it's quaint to think of saving the families but maybe the 20-something males (who are realistically probably the highest at risk) are the opportunity to make the biggest difference when it comes to refugees...
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11-13-2015, 09:20 AM
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#78
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Calgary
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They had best not turn into some of those ungrateful refugees they are now seeing in Europe; demanding nicer housing, protesting the food isn't good enough, demanding televisions, cash, etc.
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11-13-2015, 09:36 AM
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#79
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironhorse
They had best not turn into some of those ungrateful refugees they are now seeing in Europe; demanding nicer housing, protesting the food isn't good enough, demanding televisions, cash, etc.
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Source?
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11-13-2015, 09:52 AM
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#80
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cam_wmh
Source?
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Quick google search seems to indicate nothing reputable.
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