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Old 08-04-2014, 07:49 AM   #21
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While there has been some recent suggestions from Europe that e-cigs are less harmful and should help reduce smoking related diseases I will repeat what was said earlier.

Nicotine itself has adverse health effects including being a potential carcinogen. While not a proven carcinogen it has been shown to increase tumour growth rates, increase recurrence and do several other things that a cancer cell will take advantage of to spread. It impacts heart health.

Many will say it stands to reason that getting rid of all the other stuff will be helpful, however, the real effects are unknown at this time. For example, many smokers turned to low tar/low nicotine cigarettes in the past. The result is minimal as the smoker compensates by inhaling more. IN this case there may well be biochemical effects...does the matrix help get nicotine into the body thus actually increasing nicotine levels in the body (i.e. just because the vaping cartridge suggests less nicotine than a cigarette is that actually the case when it comes to putting it in your body)? What does the matrix itself do? Propylene glycol is toxic for example. I find it weird that it goes into e-cig juice for people to inhale on purpose but at a commercial facility the exposure limit is 10 mg/m3. And of course given there is no regulatory control there is also no ingredient control. The flavoring have generally never been tested for inhalation but simply ingestion. Route of exposure makes a huge difference when it comes to chemicals.

There is also research that suggest that vaping results in the same amount of aerosols depositing in the lungs compared to regular cigarettes. This level happens to be 100 times higher than the exposure limit for small particle aerosols. The solvents etc are often lung irritants which may exasperate lung conditions related to inflammation. The solvents used can break down to more dangerous chemicals when exposed to heat. Vaping may reduce natural antibiotics produced by the body.

There are only unknowns when it comes to long term use of e-cigs. Is it less dangerous than smoking? Are the dangers just being replaced with other unrecognized dangers?

So use it to help break your addiction but it likely shouldn't be used as a long term habit to replace a different long term habit on the assumption the new habit is better for you long term (which wouldn't be breaking the addiction). That's something we just don't know at this time and as mentioned nicotine itself is problematic.

IMO this is an industry that needs to be regulated until the science is actually in. In all likelihood that science is going to show that the answer is get rid of the addiction not change the method people satisfy their addiction. And I'll be honest I suspect we are going to see the same type of thing as seen for cigarettes...science is going to say one thing and the companies are going to say something else. And given most of the companies are going to be run by big tobacco in short order that isn't a comforting thought. It's already started with one e-cig CEO I read saying things like "they say they find all sorts of things in the the vapor but if we don't find those things you have to question the motives of the other side." Indeed. Though i tend to question the motives of the side making the billions of dollars on a product that simply has no safety testing behind it.

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Old 08-04-2014, 07:52 AM   #22
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Try not to take this the wrong way guys but e-cigs are for pussys, either smoke or don't smoke! walking around puffing on a vapor machine is so wrong it should be in the ##### criminal code
Man up and just slowly kill yourself. Don't be such a wimp to use a stop smoking aid.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:07 AM   #23
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Try not to take this the wrong way guys but e-cigs are for pussys, either smoke or don't smoke! walking around puffing on a vapor machine is so wrong it should be in the ##### criminal code
What exactly does ##### mean in this case?
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:19 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ernie View Post
While there has been some recent suggestions from Europe that e-cigs are less harmful and should help reduce smoking related diseases I will repeat what was said earlier.

Nicotine itself has adverse health effects including being a potential carcinogen. While not a proven carcinogen it has been shown to increase tumour growth rates, increase recurrence and do several other things that a cancer cell will take advantage of to spread. It impacts heart health.

Many will say it stands to reason that getting rid of all the other stuff will be helpful, however, the real effects are unknown at this time. For example, many smokers turned to low tar/low nicotine cigarettes in the past. The result is minimal as the smoker compensates by inhaling more. IN this case there may well be biochemical effects...does the matrix help get nicotine into the body thus actually increasing nicotine levels in the body (i.e. just because the vaping cartridge suggests less nicotine than a cigarette is that actually the case when it comes to putting it in your body)? What does the matrix itself do? Propylene glycol is toxic for example. I find it weird that it goes into e-cig juice for people to inhale on purpose but at a commercial facility the exposure limit is 10 mg/m3. And of course given there is no regulatory control there is also no ingredient control. The flavoring have generally never been tested for inhalation but simply ingestion. Route of exposure makes a huge difference when it comes to chemicals.

There is also research that suggest that vaping results in the same amount of aerosols depositing in the lungs compared to regular cigarettes. This level happens to be 100 times higher than the exposure limit for small particle aerosols. The solvents etc are often lung irritants which may exasperate lung conditions related to inflammation. The solvents used can break down to more dangerous chemicals when exposed to heat. Vaping may reduce natural antibiotics produced by the body.

There are only unknowns when it comes to long term use of e-cigs. Is it less dangerous than smoking? Are the dangers just being replaced with other unrecognized dangers?

So use it to help break your addiction but it likely shouldn't be used as a long term habit to replace a different long term habit on the assumption the new habit is better for you long term (which wouldn't be breaking the addiction). That's something we just don't know at this time and as mentioned nicotine itself is problematic.

IMO this is an industry that needs to be regulated until the science is actually in. In all likelihood that science is going to show that the answer is get rid of the addiction not change the method people satisfy their addiction. And I'll be honest I suspect we are going to see the same type of thing as seen for cigarettes...science is going to say one thing and the companies are going to say something else. And given most of the companies are going to be run by big tobacco in short order that isn't a comforting thought. It's already started with one e-cig CEO I read saying things like "they say they find all sorts of things in the the vapor but if we don't find those things you have to question the motives of the other side." Indeed. Though i tend to question the motives of the side making the billions of dollars on a product that simply has no safety testing behind it.
I get all of this Ernie I really do. But right now, to me its a better option then actual cigarettes with the tar and other chemicals that hit my lungs, and at least I have the option and ability to reduce the nicotine intake.

I've tried cold turkey and it didn't take. I tried Wellbutin and it had some interesting adverse effects, and patches and inhalers give you the nicotine but don't help with the psychological aspect of smoking.

I think this is a better way right now and hopefully I'm not permanently on these things like I am with regular cigarettes.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:20 AM   #25
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Try not to take this the wrong way guys but e-cigs are for pussys, either smoke or don't smoke! walking around puffing on a vapor machine is so wrong it should be in the ##### criminal code
Yeah yer Momma certainly didn't seem to mind me using a e-cig last night.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:59 PM   #26
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I get all of this Ernie I really do. But right now, to me its a better option then actual cigarettes with the tar and other chemicals that hit my lungs, and at least I have the option and ability to reduce the nicotine intake.

I've tried cold turkey and it didn't take. I tried Wellbutin and it had some interesting adverse effects, and patches and inhalers give you the nicotine but don't help with the psychological aspect of smoking.

I think this is a better way right now and hopefully I'm not permanently on these things like I am with regular cigarettes.
I guess my point is that the industry is so completely unregulated that we don't actually know if it is the better option. The absence of those cigarette based chemicals does not mean that vaping has less harmful chemicals despite the protests of the manufacturers. It just means that the chemicals and controls around those chemicals haven't been looked at or identified yet.

If it helps get you off nicotine then by all means I whole heartedly encourage you to give it a go and stick with it. I just think the bulk of people vaping fall into two groups. Group 1 are people that would never smoke a cigarette but see this as safe/cool/whatever. They are undoubtedly making their health worse. Group 2 are people switching over not to rid themsalves of the nicotine addiction but substituting one habit for another (obviously both are a nicotine habit) on the belief it is better for them. It may be or it may not be.

From my purely selfish point of view people vaping at a table next to you are just as annoying and obnoxious as someone smoking a cigarette next to you. I don't like the smells (and yes there are smells). I don't like the fact that there are chemicals being exhaled including nicotine which is addictive and had health consequences. My fear is that tobacco companies are going to run hard with this and we are going to be back to the days of having to wade through clouds and live with second hand crap. I want the industry regulated immediately and if the science proves that the regulations can be lessened then go right ahead and do that. You just can't let the big business get a chance to line the pockets of the politicians or we are going to have issues 10-15 years from now when the effects of vaping are starting to be known but it is so entrenched like smoking was.

A bit of the sky is falling I know but in my area a city of 60 thousand has over 15 vaping shops spring up in the past year. And it's not because we have 15 store owners that are greatly concerned with your health. It's because the profit margin is 90% or so on the liquids and they are looking for a quick score before regulations may be put in place. They are more than happy to sell you the e-cig for very little profit because they know a new user will get addicted (it's nicotine) and they hook the cigarette smoker with a completely unsubstantiated "it's better for you" or "it'll help you end your addiction to nicotine". The latter is also unsubstantiated and a terrible business model.
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:34 PM   #27
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Whether you use e-cigs vs actual cigs, doesn't matter to me. If you are serious in thinking about quitting, my first reply to you is not to bother considering such a crazy leap.

Rather than thinking about quitting, you should be considering REDUCING your use. No excuses matter here because it's easily doable.

I challenged a buddy to reduce from 4 packs a day to half that in 3-4 months. He got to 4 packs in 2 months (Crazy leap). Every 2 months I asked him to half that mainly for financial reasons, but told him that if health was another concern to him, it was a good goal too. 6 months later, he was at half a cig to 2 cigs a day (about a pack to less than a pack a week). It was around then that I said that he was in range to quit entirely if he wanted to.

If this is too extreme for you, consider reducing by 1/4 per 2 months. In 1 year, you should be down to 1/4 of that you started off with. But you have to be honest with yourself. Try quitting when you're at 2 a day. Personally for me, the biggest hurdle was that itch to do something with your hands.

And don't let people bull#### you with a contradictory belief. Smoking is cool. It makes you feel good/better when you do it. When quitting, what you're truly trying to pry yourself away from at times is the reliance on that cool image (worse when you have lots of smoking buddies) / that feeling of relaxation that comes with smoking and instead rely on yourself for that feeling.

Here's something to chew on if you want to quit... I really need to figure out why posting youtube clips using the youtube tags for me keeps turning up white blanks..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_YZ_PtMkw0

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Old 08-04-2014, 02:01 PM   #28
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Are there any e-cigs that are just flavored water vapor with no nicotine whatsoever? I don't smoke but I think e-cigs look cool and it might be nice to smoke one in my garage from time to time in the same way that some people smoke cigars.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:12 PM   #29
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Are there any e-cigs that are just flavored water vapor with no nicotine whatsoever? I don't smoke but I think e-cigs look cool and it might be nice to smoke one in my garage from time to time in the same way that some people smoke cigars.
This?

http://www.electroniccigaretteconsum...hout-nicotine/

No idea on any of this stuff, but didn't some guy earlier mention Halo?
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:36 PM   #30
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I agree with you and I agree with them. At the moment my step-son is trying to kick cigarettes and is weaning himself off of nicotine with gradually lower doses of vapour.

I'm not sold on the vapour because of many of your reasons, like a lot of things, they're new and have no track history, we dont have any information on long-term effects.

Use the vape to kick it and then ditch that too. Sure, thats not what the vape shops want to hear, but thems the breaks.

Oh, and its spelled 'vapour' this is Canada and I pay my taxes!
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:27 PM   #31
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I guess my point is that the industry is so completely unregulated that we don't actually know if it is the better option. The absence of those cigarette based chemicals does not mean that vaping has less harmful chemicals despite the protests of the manufacturers. It just means that the chemicals and controls around those chemicals haven't been looked at or identified yet.

If it helps get you off nicotine then by all means I whole heartedly encourage you to give it a go and stick with it. I just think the bulk of people vaping fall into two groups. Group 1 are people that would never smoke a cigarette but see this as safe/cool/whatever. They are undoubtedly making their health worse. Group 2 are people switching over not to rid themsalves of the nicotine addiction but substituting one habit for another (obviously both are a nicotine habit) on the belief it is better for them. It may be or it may not be.

From my purely selfish point of view people vaping at a table next to you are just as annoying and obnoxious as someone smoking a cigarette next to you. I don't like the smells (and yes there are smells). I don't like the fact that there are chemicals being exhaled including nicotine which is addictive and had health consequences. My fear is that tobacco companies are going to run hard with this and we are going to be back to the days of having to wade through clouds and live with second hand crap. I want the industry regulated immediately and if the science proves that the regulations can be lessened then go right ahead and do that. You just can't let the big business get a chance to line the pockets of the politicians or we are going to have issues 10-15 years from now when the effects of vaping are starting to be known but it is so entrenched like smoking was.

A bit of the sky is falling I know but in my area a city of 60 thousand has over 15 vaping shops spring up in the past year. And it's not because we have 15 store owners that are greatly concerned with your health. It's because the profit margin is 90% or so on the liquids and they are looking for a quick score before regulations may be put in place. They are more than happy to sell you the e-cig for very little profit because they know a new user will get addicted (it's nicotine) and they hook the cigarette smoker with a completely unsubstantiated "it's better for you" or "it'll help you end your addiction to nicotine". The latter is also unsubstantiated and a terrible business model.
As a non-smoker myself I understand that it seems "easy" to just stop smoking; but as an experiment I think every non-smoker should try and cut sugar out of their diet and really feel what dependence is...its not easy to stop things like nicotine/sugar/fat/salt that our bodies enjoy.

I bought my friend a vaporizer/e-cig with no nicotine and it cut his smoking in half plus smelled like peaches. I consider that a win.
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:25 AM   #32
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I agree with you and I agree with them. At the moment my step-son is trying to kick cigarettes and is weaning himself off of nicotine with gradually lower doses of vapour.

I'm not sold on the vapour because of many of your reasons, like a lot of things, they're new and have no track history, we dont have any information on long-term effects.

Use the vape to kick it and then ditch that too. Sure, thats not what the vape shops want to hear, but thems the breaks.

Oh, and its spelled 'vapour' this is Canada and I pay my taxes!
That's what I'm saying. Use it to kick the habit but don't just develop a vaping habit....at least not until one actually knows it's safe and regulations are put in on manufacturers. Well we already know that vaping nicotine isn't going to be safe. Health issues due to nicotine alone are well known.

A bunch of this stuff comes from China and the quality control when it comes to chemical formulations is horrendous (first hand experience). They can't even keep toxins out of things that by law they have to. They don't have the quality systems in place to consistently produce a quality product (unless a reputable western company is in full control at the facility).

Vapour.....I've been in the states too long that I auto-drop the "u" in everything I write.

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Old 08-05-2014, 11:12 AM   #33
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Went through this in the last two months. I was a 1 or 2 cig a day guy, but full time on weekends. Thought I would give them a shot.

I started ordering disposable ones online (white cloud flings), and they were decent, but I wanted a bit more - including knowledge that the liquid was mixed here in North America.


From there I got the eRoll, which is a small ecig that provides good plumes of smoke in a small package that can fake as a cig. I use it still when I decide I am going to "vape" at work or around people - as its form factor is more socially acceptable. I just stand with the smokers. But while it is a great format, the mini tanks are a bit of a pain/finicky.


So I then got an Innokin iTaste VV3 (a variable wattage battery, which I understand to be a good feature for those that want to try juices at different heats) and the Kanger Aerotank Mini. This has slowly replaced my eRoll as my preferred tool.


Then this week I got a mechanical mod and watched vids to build microcoils. Basically these are just a collectors move, they look cooler and do provide more flavour and clouds.

Since trying them out, the cig spell has been very broken. Do I look like a ######? Yes. But don't care. I still have the odd real smoke at the cottage, but nothing like before, and it is never as nice as it once was. I also have seen my circulation return, smell return, etc. - and it has been surprisingly easy.
I would recommend you go to a local vape store. They can set you up with a starter kit and more importantly they should be able to let you sit down and sample a bunch of flavours. If you go for an eRoll at some point, I would keep the nicotine levels quite high (18 to 24 mg), while I will use 12-18 for my iTaste, and max 12 for my mod. Don't worry about going too high, as the delivery of nicotine in vapour is much slower than smoke. You (fortunately or unfortunately) will likely never get the full "1st of the day" nicotine rush that you used to with real cigs. Instead it will just make the vapour harsh on your throat.
Are there more studies required? Yes. Are the 4 ingredients in ecigs well known? Yes. Is breathing air better for you than vaping? Yes.
I am happy trading the 4000 chemicals in cigs which contain over 40 known carcinogenic compounds and 400 other toxins (including tar, arsenic, formaldehyde, cyanide, and ammonia) for the 4 in e-cigs.

But I do agree, we shouldn't be vaping in closed public spaces. Why? Because it is rude. Like farts.
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Old 08-05-2014, 02:47 PM   #34
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I am happy trading the 4000 chemicals in cigs which contain over 40 known carcinogenic compounds and 400 other toxins (including tar, arsenic, formaldehyde, cyanide, and ammonia) for the 4 in e-cigs.
This is really the reason for my posts. Just because one number is smaller doesn't mean it is tangibly better for you. We don't know because they haven't been characterized to any substantial degree based on manufacturer, method etc etc etc. And that is what the marketing is all about and not a shred of it has been proven. The marketing in the states used to claim it would break the nicotine habit but they had to stop using that claim because it wasn't proven (and still isn't...anything I've seen thus far indicates that cold turkey works as well or better).

There are more than 4 things as well (the manufacturers don't take into account what happens to things when they are heated). In addition there are things present in the same or greater amounts that we know cause health issues (nicotine itself, the particulate size etc).
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:38 AM   #35
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Old 08-06-2014, 02:15 PM   #36
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As many have stated before the 4 ingredients to E-cigs are somewhat unknown in this function. The ingredients in cigarettes are well known! Most of them are straight poison. So I like to think in this case the devil you don't know is more likely better than the one we do know. I can say pretty confidently that if I keep smoking it will more than likely kill me. I cannot say that about ecigs.

I'm ordering one online today and hope to use it to ween myself down to maybe having some occasional puffs on the weekends! Half a pack a day now so wish me luck!
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Old 08-06-2014, 02:17 PM   #37
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I just wanted to put this in that I'm on day four, and even with the vapor I know its not the same thing and I'm having some moments of pure rage and absolute cravings.

But I am noticing a difference between smoking a cigarette and using the vapor.

On top of that all of the ugly yellow finger stains are gone.

But rage is awesome.
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Old 08-06-2014, 04:25 PM   #38
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I just wanted to put this in that I'm on day four, and even with the vapor I know its not the same thing and I'm having some moments of pure rage and absolute cravings.

But I am noticing a difference between smoking a cigarette and using the vapor.

On top of that all of the ugly yellow finger stains are gone.

But rage is awesome.
Yup. That will happen. Everyone thinks its just the nicotine your body is craving. The body is also craving the other toxins as well.
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:11 PM   #39
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Yes pretty pictures from what I'm sure is a completely unbiased source. I particularly like the also found in food part. Tell me do you inhale food? The chiropractor often has neat pictures as well. They also have no science that backs those claims. My spider sense says the marketing is intentionally misleading and that's done for a reason (nefarious or simply no data I don't know).

Nicotine is the addictive component as it is the one that activates the reward part of your brain. Some animal studies suggest acetaldehyde may also be addictive. In the limited work on e-cigs acetaldehyde is present. Along with several other detectable species that are present in cigarette smoke. Now the available data suggests these are present in less concentration. depending on what you read maybe at about 20% of the regular cigarette levels in second hand smoke. But it does NOT necessarily follow that associated risks are brought Down. That is not known. Nor is it known what levels are present in what is actually inhaled (especially given different flavorings, manufacturing, nicotine extraction techniques) or how the different delivery system changes things.

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Old 08-06-2014, 05:55 PM   #40
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I just wanted to put this in that I'm on day four, and even with the vapor I know its not the same thing and I'm having some moments of pure rage and absolute cravings.

But I am noticing a difference between smoking a cigarette and using the vapor.

On top of that all of the ugly yellow finger stains are gone.

But rage is awesome.
It takes about a week. I couldn't drop my morning cig for a good five days in. Remember to drink a metric fata tonne of water as the PG dries your throat out like crazy at the begining. You will at some point get vapers tongue where you stop being able to taste the vapor. Switch juices and try a menthol or mint juice and stick your face into a coffee can and inhale to reset your taste buds.

Always have access to plenty of different flavors, batteries and to charged batteries. It's tough to not have and your old fallback is always a short trip to the corner store unfortunately.
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