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Old 02-15-2019, 07:32 PM   #1
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Default The Athletic Duha: Dechipering the evolving trade market

from Duha's latest article on the Athletic (paywall)

https://theathletic.com/820520/2019/...ic-than-usual/

some details of the Cammalleri non-trade. apparently Burke was asking for a 1st and 2 assets and then dropped the price to just a 2nd the night before (don't think the exact ask was reported before)

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“The key that year was Ryan Kesler – he held up the trade deadline until the night before,” said Burke. “At that point, I said to our guys, ‘OK, we’re not getting what we want for Cammalleri,’ so we dropped our price once on Cammalleri, but when we didn’t get the lower price, we said no. We got one ####ty offer, and I said, ‘this organization is better off having a reputation for not making bad deals’ than just getting rid of a guy


Duha also speculated what a sign and trade for Stone might look like for the Flames.

He came up with a 1st, Frolik, Mangipane and Kylington using the Karlsson deal as a template.

Last edited by sureLoss; 02-15-2019 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:34 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by sureLoss View Post
from Duha's latest article on the Athletic (paywall)

https://theathletic.com/820520/2019/...ic-than-usual/

some details of the Cammalleri non-trade. apparently Burke was asking for a 1st and 2 assets and then dropped the price to a 2nd (don't think this was reported before)






Duha also speculated what a sign and trade for Stone might look like for the Flames.

He came up with a 1st, Frolik, Mangipane and Kylington using the Karlsson deal as a template.
With an extension? I would do that in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureLoss View Post
from Duha's latest article on the Athletic (paywall)

https://theathletic.com/820520/2019/...ic-than-usual/

some details of the Cammalleri non-trade. apparently Burke was asking for a 1st and 2 assets and then dropped the price to a 2nd (don't think this was reported before)






Duha also speculated what a sign and trade for Stone might look like for the Flames.

He came up with a 1st, Frolik, Mangipane and Kylington using the Karlsson deal as a template.
Done
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:44 PM   #4
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For a signed Stone, I’d be willing to pay more, and would expect Ottawa to want more

Replace eat bread with something better would be the minimum I’d expect Ottawa to want
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:46 PM   #5
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Yeah two of those assets (Frolik and Mangiapane) are worth very little IMO. A late first and a good prospect doesn’t seem like enough.
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:47 PM   #6
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Duha also speculated what a sign and trade for Stone might look like for the Flames.

He came up with a 1st, Frolik, Mangipane and Kylington using the Karlsson deal as a template.
Funny, I was suggesting a trade for an unsigned Stone could look like our 1st, conditional 2nd (if he re-signs), Frolik, and a prospect not named Dube or Valimaki.

Though I agree, if we're talking a sign and trade the price goes up significantly.
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:55 PM   #7
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Not worth it if it's rental only.
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Old 02-15-2019, 07:58 PM   #8
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Not worth it if it's rental only.


Duha also speculated what a sign and trade for Stone might look like for the Flames.


Obviously the key part of that is the "signing" and for how much.

I still think its a looongshot to happen.
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sureLoss View Post
from Duha's latest article on the Athletic (paywall)

https://theathletic.com/820520/2019/...ic-than-usual/

some details of the Cammalleri non-trade. apparently Burke was asking for a 1st and 2 assets and then dropped the price to just a 2nd the night before (don't think the exact ask was reported before)





Duha also speculated what a sign and trade for Stone might look like for the Flames.

He came up with a 1st, Frolik, Mangipane and Kylington using the Karlsson deal as a template.
Yes please!
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:09 PM   #10
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Why all this sign and trade talk as far as the mechanism in this situation?

IIRC The sign and trade in basketball is a thing because they have the rules that teams that drafted those players can sign that player for a year longer and more money then another team could, which is why the signing is done by the current team, before the trade of that player to a new team, so the player gets more money and the new team gets a longer term then if that new team just signed the player as a UFA.

NHL doesn't have that stipulation, thus no advantage. If any team like the Flames wanted to extend Stone, they would want to be the ones to do the contract extensions, not leave it in the hands of the Sens. If the Flames are granted permission pre trade as part of the process in talking extending Stone (which they'd want to be a part of) why not negotiate the contract, make the trade and then sign the extension after the trade?

Its semantics I guess, but I can't see the Sens giving Stone some contract without the team or teams looking to trade for him, being fully part of the terms of that contract.

As for Duhas return, I think that looks a bit light. My guess is Sens would want Bennett as part of a package for an extended Stone.

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Old 02-15-2019, 08:24 PM   #11
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What is the rule on a 7 year vs 8 year contract? Under contract by trade deadline?
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:29 PM   #12
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Why all this sign and trade talk as far as the mechanism in this situation?

IIRC The sign and trade in basketball is a thing because they have the rules that teams that drafted those players can sign that player for a year longer and more money then another team could, which is why the signing is done by the current team, before the trade of that player to a new team, so the player gets more money and the new team gets a longer term then if that new team just signed the player as a UFA.

NHL doesn't have that stipulation, thus no advantage. If any team like the Flames wanted to extend Stone, they would want to be the ones to do the contract extensions, not leave it in the hands of the Sens. If the Flames are granted permission pre trade as part of the process in talking extending Stone (which they'd want to be a part of) why not negotiate the contract, make the trade and then sign the extension after the trade?

Its semantics I guess, but I can't see the Sens giving Stone some contract without the team or teams looking to trade for him, being fully part of the terms of that contract.

As for Duhas return, I think that looks a bit light. My guess is Sens would want Bennett as part of a package for an extended Stone.

Haven't ya heard?

Because he hasn't been traded that means he can't be traded...or he is untouchable....or something.


https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...postcount=9914
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:54 PM   #13
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Have a feeling mark stone is a flame by next week. There's been just the right amount of smoke for the wizqrd to do his work. Our first, a 4th that becomes a second if we make the conference finals or Stone re-signs and maybe Dube gets it done easily IMO.
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:45 PM   #14
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Not to derail, but Stone is 29 and i just having his first ever career year -- first ever PPG -- right now. I realize this goes against the grain but I don't want Calgary to be the one to give him $8 mln/yr for the next 6 years. He's only been a full time NHLer for 4 years.

That said I don't know the player at all. I see that he's huge. Does he play a physical game?
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:47 PM   #15
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Not to derail, but Stone is 29 and i just having his first ever career year -- first ever PPG -- right now. I realize this goes against the grain but I don't want Calgary to be the one to give him $8 mln/yr for the next 6 years. He's only been a full time NHLer for 4 years.

That said I don't know the player at all. I see that he's huge. Does he play a physical game?
Mark Stone is 26. He'll be 27 on May 13th.
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:03 PM   #16
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Mark Stone is 26. He'll be 27 on May 13th.
My bad! Math is hard.
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:05 PM   #17
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Not to derail, but Stone is 29 and i just having his first ever career year -- first ever PPG -- right now.

Second year being PPG actually. Last year he had 62 pts in 58 games.

Also as AC mentioned he is 26. He's not a mirage, he has had a similar career for Sens fans as Gaudreau has to us, although he's got a tendency to get injured.

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That said I don't know the player at all. I see that he's huge. Does he play a physical game?
Yes, though I wouldn't call him a power forward in the Jamie Benn sense. He's a similar player to Matthew Tkachuk but less of a pest. IMO You could almost say he's a winger version of Ryan Getzlaf.
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:18 PM   #18
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Second year being PPG actually. Last year he had 62 pts in 58 games.

Also as AC mentioned he is 26. He's not a mirage, he has had a similar career for Sens fans as Gaudreau has to us, although he's got a tendency to get injured.



Yes, though I wouldn't call him a power forward in the Jamie Benn sense. He's a similar player to Matthew Tkachuk but less of a pest. IMO You could almost say he's a winger version of Ryan Getzlaf.
Since 2014-2015 Mark Stone also leads the league in takeaways with 466 in 341 games.

2. Jeff Skinner has 342 in 377 games
3. Ryan O'Reilly has 331 in 362 games
4. John Tavares has 313 in 376 games
5. Mikael Backlund has 301 in 350 games

He's considered a defensive beast in that regard at least, and also dangerous offensively. Though I was surprised to see he's never hit 30 goals in a season (he will finally this year by the looks of it).

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Old 02-15-2019, 10:20 PM   #19
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Also the flames up an in with his brother,so they probably know how much he will won't and if he would resign with the team if we traded 4 him.who knows maybe Michael has been talking up the flames 2 him ,
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:34 PM   #20
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Yea, I have never heard of a sign and trade in the NHL, certainly not so quickly. It typically can happen after a period of dissatisfaction with player(Thomas Tatar from Detroit to Vegas). If Ottawa signs Stone they keep him.
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