As a Seattle resident and former Sonics fan who lost him team and does not want to steal another city's team, I thought I would post a couple of thoughts.
1. Flames fans will be totally OK if the Flames leave.
When the Sonics left Seattle I switched my basketball purchases for ice hockey. I now have a season ticket package for the WHL Everett Silvertips with money left over. Other people in Seattle started going to Major League Soccer games, and Seattle now averages higher attendance than many of the big European teams.
I doubt the Flames will leave Calgary. But if they do you will find other things to do with your pocket money. A surplus of disposable income to spend on entertainment is never going to be a problem in a major city like Calgary.
There's no soccer in Calgary nor is there winter football or spring baseball. It's nice to see some out of town perspective but you have to understand Calgary doesn't have remotely close to the same availability of sports as well our winters suck and there's not much else going on but the Flames to get people out of their houses on cold winter days. Hitmen already do fairly well for a WHL team and may sell out more games and the Roughnecks would probably do better in their short season but that's not going to fill the void of the Flames leaving. Also Calgary losing the Flames would be more akin to Seattle losing their top team in the Seahawks not the Sonics.
I don't think the Flames will ever sell because Edwards likes to be part of the NHL but I think the city is testing his loyalty. These are proud men that have done a lot for the community and are feeling pretty disrespected and Nenshi is to them like Trump to Mexicans. Deep down I hope they would realize they will outlast Nenshi so hopefully they can be patient enough to wait this out another four years if they have to.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 09-24-2017 at 12:05 PM.
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There's no soccer in Calgary nor is there winter football or spring baseball. It's nice to see some out of town perspective but you have to understand Calgary doesn't have remotely close to the same availability of sports as well our winters suck and there's not much else going on but the Flames to get people out of their houses on cold winter days. Hitmen already do fairly well for a WHL team and may sell out more games and the Roughnecks would probably do better in their short season but that's not going to fill the void of the Flames leaving. Also Calgary losing the Flames would be more akin to Seattle losing their top team in the Seahawks not the Sonics.
I don't think the Flames will ever sell because Edwards likes to be part of the NHL but I think the city is testing his loyalty. These are proud men that have done a lot for the community and are feeling pretty disrespected and Nenshi is to them like Trump to Mexicans. Deep down I hope they would realize they will outlast Nenshi so hopefully they can be patient enough to wait this out another four years if they have to.
First of all, Hockey is very much an 'Old Boys Club' and the NHL is very exclusive, so theres some merit to that.
Honestly, I really hope the owners like Nenshi. Hes not doing wonders for their business at the moment but for the Owners that are Citizens of Calgary you'd expect them to be happy to have a Mayor that is looking out for the Citizens at large.
Look, I understand most of the issues surrounding this arena deal by now, the City has to move a little, I get that, but so do the Flames.
This is the new Paradigm. The 'Something for Nothing' deals are much more limited these days if they're not gone altogether.
I get it, the Flames wanted a donation and all the City offered was a really favourable 'mortgage.'
The Flames wont move and they'll get their Arena, they're either just going to have to pay more for it than they wanted to or wait for an Angel Investor (The Feds) on an Olympic deal.
But the fact of the matter remains that we as a society have to start holding sports teams to the same standards as every other business.
The biggest difference is 'Love.'
We love our sports teams, we identify with them, we dont love our Doctors or Lawyers or Accountants (Although we should because Accountants are a God-Send! Love your Accountant! I'm not biased, super-swearsies) or our Grocery store or whatever.
I had to borrow money to start my business, be it from Family, Friends or a Bank, but I had to pay it back. Not immediately, not with staggering amounts of interest, but eventually and fairly.
Thats the way I see it. The City offered to lend other people's money at a fair rate and plan but they arent making a Donation to a Charity.
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I don't think the Flames will ever sell because Edwards likes to be part of the NHL but I think the city is testing his loyalty. These are proud men that have done a lot for the community and are feeling pretty disrespected and Nenshi is to them like Trump to Mexicans. Deep down I hope they would realize they will outlast Nenshi so hopefully they can be patient enough to wait this out another four years if they have to.
"Disrespected" by not having hundreds of millions of dollars handed to them, plus exemptions from property tax and rent? If they are feeling disrespected, I think their expectations are way out of line.
Anyhow, I think this whole arena funding situation teaches us something about life in general. Here's my 2c:
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How were new football stadiums in Regina and Toronto structured?
Regina $270 million
$80 million grant from province to city
$100 million loan to be repaid by ticket surcharges
$73 million from City of Regina
Balance of $17 million from the club itself.
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First of all, Hockey is very much an 'Old Boys Club' and the NHL is very exclusive, so theres some merit to that.
Honestly, I really hope the owners like Nenshi. Hes not doing wonders for their business at the moment but for the Owners that are Citizens of Calgary you'd expect them to be happy to have a Mayor that is looking out for the Citizens at large.
Look, I understand most of the issues surrounding this arena deal by now, the City has to move a little, I get that, but so do the Flames.
This is the new Paradigm. The 'Something for Nothing' deals are much more limited these days if they're not gone altogether.
I get it, the Flames wanted a donation and all the City offered was a really favourable 'mortgage.'
The Flames wont move and they'll get their Arena, they're either just going to have to pay more for it than they wanted to or wait for an Angel Investor (The Feds) on an Olympic deal.
But the fact of the matter remains that we as a society have to start holding sports teams to the same standards as every other business.
The biggest difference is 'Love.'
We love our sports teams, we identify with them, we dont love our Doctors or Lawyers or Accountants (Although we should because Accountants are a God-Send! Love your Accountant! I'm not biased, super-swearsies) or our Grocery store or whatever.
I had to borrow money to start my business, be it from Family, Friends or a Bank, but I had to pay it back. Not immediately, not with staggering amounts of interest, but eventually and fairly.
Thats the way I see it. The City offered to lend other people's money at a fair rate and plan but they arent making a Donation to a Charity.
The Flames don't need the city to lend them money, they can do that on their own. They want the city to put in equity, and that's why anything resembling a loan from the city with repayment isn't worth peanuts to them.
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The Flames don't need the city to lend them money, they can do that on their own. They want the city to put in equity, and that's why anything resembling a loan from the city with repayment isn't worth peanuts to them.
If by "equity" you mean purchasing a share of the business without receiving equity appreciation, voting rights or dividends... then yes.
Ultimately this is where the Flames' proposal bugs me (and likely many people) the wrong way. You can't be a for-profit business and ask people to contribute equity and receive absolutely no financial compensation in return.
I'd be much more open to a Flames proposal if they provided some type of direct return to the city from the club itself. Even if it meant the city paying (hypothetically) 50% of the cost and receiving a disproportionately low (say 5%) of the net profits.
Their proposal is like Zuckerberg saying "hey, buy these shares of facebook that don't have voting rights! In return, you get... to use facebook!" Except this deal is even worse.
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Their proposal is like Zuckerberg saying "hey, buy these shares of facebook that don't have voting rights! In return, you get... to use facebook!" Except this deal is even worse.
"hey, buy these shares of facebook that don't have voting rights! In return, you get... to pay to use facebook! Additionally, you can't sell the shares and their value will decrease to zero. Also, please burn any old shares you have so they don't compete with your new shares."
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The owners are negotiating. Why would the give up equity when all the other major sports business negotiate for stadiums and arenas on the same basis.Read "community revitalization levy".
Everybody be it NHL, CFL, knows the score but doesn't want to play all their cards at once. Arena, LRT, election, $170 million city of Calgary shortfall.
All in good time, too much on the menu leads to indigestion. By ratepayers.
I get it, the Flames wanted a donation and all the City offered was a really favourable 'mortgage.'
Keep in mind that the City not only offered a "favourable mortgage" to build the arena, they offered to have their property taxes go only towards paying off that mortgage. A lot of people seem to forget that with every property there is the cost to build it, and the cost to own it. If my property taxes were 100% going towards paying off my mortgage, I'd be pretty elated.
But apparently that's disrespectful!
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Keep in mind that the City not only offered a "favourable mortgage" to build the arena, they offered to have their property taxes go only towards paying off that mortgage. A lot of people seem to forget that with every property there is the cost to build it, and the cost to own it. If my property taxes were 100% going towards paying off my mortgage, I'd be pretty elated.
But apparently that's disrespectful!
Exactly. With the city's offer, they're either getting 1/3 of the building paid for by the city and paying regular property taxes, or they're paying back the city for 1/3 of the building's cost and paying nothing for property taxes.
Either way, it's a hell of a deal.
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Compared to the deal the Flames got with the Saddledome, an arena the Flames didn't pay for, the deal looks terrible. No wonder CSEC would rather stick it out with the Saddledome.
It's important to remember the Flames are currently subsidized by at least 6 million per year right now. The cities offer really offers no new money. It just continues the current subsidy. Which is pretty reasonable.
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It's important to remember the Flames are currently subsidized by at least 6 million per year right now. The cities offer really offers no new money. It just continues the current subsidy. Which is pretty reasonable.
Look at the Edmonton NHL deal and the Regina Roughriders deal. Reasonable has got nothing to do with it. They are the closest benchmarks for stadium deals both in time and geography.
The blue lines and red lines will move with regards to reasonableness on this deal. Before the final contracts are signed.
Keep in mind that the City not only offered a "favourable mortgage" to build the arena, they offered to have their property taxes go only towards paying off that mortgage. A lot of people seem to forget that with every property there is the cost to build it, and the cost to own it. If my property taxes were 100% going towards paying off my mortgage, I'd be pretty elated.
But apparently that's disrespectful!
Not just disrespectful, but smug and arrogant as well.
Can we please stop with all this hyperbole of what a favor the City is doing the Flames by giving them a sweetheart deal in a building they didn't build or own? Its not like the City of Calgary paid for the Saddledome all by its little lonesome either. The city paid $31.5M of the $100M it took to build the arena. If it were not for the existence of the Flames in the first place the City would not have had the support they needed to get the federal funding for the Olympics and construction of the building. The support for a Calgary bid was weak without a tenant to use the arena, so the Flames coming along was the tonic required. The Feds were not going to give money to another debacle like Montreal, and building a $100M arena in city with no use for it was a big stumbling block. Without the Flames the City doesn't get the Olympics and does not have that transformative moment that made Calgary what it is today (good and bad).
As to the economic spinoff of the Flames, the City of Calgary did a study to determine the value of such back in 1993-94 before renovations to the Saddledome were completed. According to the Alderman Rick Smith, that value was determined to be about $100M per year, back in 1993-94 dollars ($175M in 2017 dollars). Smith went on to discuss that renovation and how the money was only used for the "public" portions of the arena (concourse widening, parking facilities, concession access, etc.) and that all other improvements to the building were paid for by the Flames (private boxes, offices, dressing rooms, etc.), which were called substantial investments. Funding for the public renovation was actually provided by the Feds, the Province, and the City, except that the City's portion was paid for by the Saddledome Foundation. The Saddledome Foundation already had a surplus put away for future renovations, so agreement to this plan meant the City contributed nothing to the improvements in the building. Since this renovation, the Flames have been responsible for costs associated with improvements to the building. The arrangement has worked out well for both parties in the long run, which is exactly why a partnership is needed moving forward. Both parties need each other.
