unethical business experience *LONG READ*

[Flames_Gimp]

after I decide what to do i'll share everything, I kept it all.

I gave them a 3 out of 5 because i did actually receive a hot tube and I would feel bad leaving a 1 or 2. iirc i said at the end of the review "in my oppinion if you want a hot tub avoid the hassle and maybe go somewhere else"

[GGG]

The 5 star or bust review process really bugs me. It doesn’t add any useful information about a service.

A 5 star review should mean above expectations Essentially I got more than I expected and a business went beyond what I paid for. There should be a means in a review system to reward businesses who do well. A 4 star review being an 80% should be a business that met all expectations that I’d gladly go back to. A 3 star review is still a passing grade and shouldn’t be looked at a a business being terrible. 1 and 2 should be reserved for where you did not get value.

Flames Gimp’’s review is exactly what I am looking for. Got a service, not quite what was expected, after a bunch of work on his side he eventually got a product he was happy with and probably wouldn’t do the transaction again. That is useful information for me as a consumer.

The problem is that fake 5 star reviews are used to boost ratings and are paid for making real reviews hard to find. The system is quite broken.

I get where Sliver is coming from that people leaving unreasonable reviews is a problem and people leaving false reviews is a problem but that is separate. Flames Gimp got a 3 star experience, why shouldn’t he share that. In addition the idea that you are destroying someone’s business isn’t quite fare. There is a finite amount of money being spent on any product category. It going to the best provider of the service instead of a worse provider is market selection. It’s a function of capitalism that some will fail.

In a world where too often the sole differentiator is price having something else to go is important. It’s too bad it’s such a broken process where customers blackmail owners for free stuff and owners threaten lawsuits for reasonable reviews.

[Strange Brew]

Good businesses get better reviews than bad ones.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Good businesses get better reviews than bad ones.

that's so incorrect.

It's the way it should be, but divorced from reality. that's what most of this thread has been about.

edit: (unless you're being tongue in cheek, then yet again it goes over my head)

[WhiteTiger]

The thing that bugs me about reviews is review bombing/brigading. I wish there was some way to make sure that someone was actually a verified customer of that particular business first. I get having a gripe with (or an excessive positive attachment to) a business if you have actually patronized that establishment, but this good/bad reviewing of a business you have never been to/are not in the same city as/on the same continent as because someone on the internet told you to has got to stop, too.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Good businesses get better reviews than bad ones.

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

that's so incorrect.

It's the way it should be, but divorced from reality. that's what most of this thread has been about.

edit: (unless you're being tongue in cheek, then yet again it goes over my head)

But it's exactly correct on the topic of the thread. If the seller had been a "good business" by delivering a working product, there wouldn't have been any need for a thread in the first place.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by you&me

But it's exactly correct on the topic of the thread. If the seller had been a "good business" by delivering a working product, there wouldn't have been any need for a thread in the first place.

Just because it is true in this situation does not mean it is true as a general statement or always true.

[Sliver]

Stepping back from this particular topic and addressing the greater topic of reviews for a second here.

I understand you guys feel entitled and justified to review any business you choose using your own arbitrary and subjective measures. Like, 3/5 is just fine to some of you for a perfectly adequate, trouble-free experience. For some reason you feel a responsibility to broadcast 24/7 365 forever that a business that served you competently and well gets a rating of 60%. I disagree with it - as would most reasonable people - but as of now there is no way to stop you.

What I don't understand is how you can't see how the business owner would see that as a direct assault on their livelihood, their income, their staff and their future prospects. And when you assault somebody, they are going to want to retaliate.

If you're unhappy with a product/service, consider writing a direct email to the company. Like, I don't see why people have the need to drag the entire world wide web into their disagreements with small businesses. It is an abuse.

Back to our current story:

What did you get out of it, anyway? You pissed off the company that was to maintain your hot tub. Should he have altered the contract? If he did, then, no, of course not. I mean I doubt he's a Rhodes scholar or anything, so whatever, but in his shoes you would have dropped like a stone to my lowest priority because you publicly attacked my company with the goal of encouraging people to shop elsewhere. Yeah, you can do it, but to be shocked Pikachu there are consequences to that confuses me.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I stayed at an Airbnb once. Just a room. Owner was in the home with me. It was fine but she wasn’t exactly the cleanliness person and wasn’t home when I arrived despite her knowing the arrival time window and didn’t answer her phone. I only waited about 15 minutes but it was still nerve wracking.

Anyways, I left her a 3/5 on cleanliness I think and then a 4/5 on the arrival rating (or whatever the categories were).

Overall, I left a very positive review despite the limitations because it was cheap AF and totally a get what you pay for situation.


She messaged me and flipped #### and was super pissy. Had the attitude that anything less than 5 stars is basically a 0 and will kill her airbnb rating.

Made me wish I’d given her worse ratings. What a jerk.

Sliver you don’t have a sister in Montreal do you? She treated me like I’d just assaulted her.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I stayed at an Airbnb once. Just a room. Owner was in the home with me. It was fine but she wasn’t exactly the cleanliness person and wasn’t home when I arrived despite her knowing the arrival time window and didn’t answer her phone. I only waited about 15 minutes but it was still nerve wracking.

Anyways, I left her a 3/5 on cleanliness I think and then a 4/5 on the arrival rating (or whatever the categories were).

Overall, I left a very positive review despite the limitations because it was cheap AF and totally a get what you pay for situation.


She messaged me and flipped #### and was super pissy. Had the attitude that anything less than 5 stars is basically a 0 and will kill her airbnb rating.

Made me wish I’d given her worse ratings. What a jerk.

Sliver you don’t have a sister in Montreal do you? She treated me like I’d just assaulted her.

Okay, and maybe you were justified, but she's not wrong. Those lower reviews actually hurt you. And of course they do. Who would look at two similar items/experiences/services/whatevers and opt for the one with the lower review? Nobody. That's why proprietors get upset with low reviews.

Just remember, you're under no obligation to write a review. Golden rule that ####.

I, for one, would rather abstain from reviewing somebody than hurt somebody. I am surprised at how nonchalant people are about damaging businesses here, there and everywhere. It's very cutthroat and unnecessary when the alternative is just go to 7-11, grab a slurpee and enjoy your day instead of picking up your phone to destroy a little piece of somebody and their business.

[Fuzz]

Just curious how people review something like hotels? I often review on Booking.com after, and they give you lots of categories to rate, then it calculates the score. Most of the time when I am done my number matches pretty close to what they have the review at. I never give 10's across the board, because I don't stay at perfect hotels, and I know that. I'd be frustrated if everything on Booking.com was reviewed as a 10 or a 1. I seek out ratings ranges because they typically match my price range. I've found their rating system to work really well, and I've never had had owner come back to me for my 6.5 review.

[Sliver]

This is kind of like the gun debate in the USA.

Reviews don't kill businesses, businesses kill businesses.

Is it possible some of you don't realize just how powerful a tool a review is? You should need a license or training before being allowed to one-star companies while taking a giant dump and not using a bidet or wet wipes after. You have every single business owner in this thread telling you guys a three is a damaging review and no review is better, yet people still feel justified in shooting a business in the leg for providing the service they expected, but not above and beyond quite enough.

Business owners are not your dancing monkey. They don't owe you some magical above and beyond experience. They're just people with their own stresses and lives as well, and shouldn't be penalized for merely offering you good service, good products and a good experience.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Just curious how people review something like hotels? I often review on Booknig.com after, and they give you lots of categories to rate, then it calculates the score. Most of the time when I am done my number matches pretty close to what they have the review at. I never give 10's across the board, because I don't stay at perfect hotels, and I know that. I'd be frustrated if everything on Booking.com was reviewed as a 10 or a 1. I seek out ratings ranges because they typically match my price range. I've found their rating system to work really well, and I've never had had owner come back to me for my 6.5 review.

Hotels with like 1400 reviews tend to land on something that is fair and generally representative of reality.

Small business with like 10 - 30 reviews can get skewed/crucified with just one or two vindictive customers that get one or two of their friends to one-star you.

Maybe a change Google could make would be to not display any stars at all until a business reaches like 100 reviews over the last six months or something. So people have to read the reviews and come to their own conclusions.

[ResAlien]

Business owners are sentient cash registers. You get in, get your crap, and get out. Got it. If you think anything in the OP qualifies as good service, good product, or a good experience I suspect you may actually be the one who sold the hot tub.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Okay, and maybe you were justified, but she's not wrong. Those lower reviews actually hurt you. And of course they do. Who would look at two similar items/experiences/services/whatevers and opt for the one with the lower review? Nobody. That's why proprietors get upset with low reviews.

Just remember, you're under no obligation to write a review. Golden rule that ####.

I, for one, would rather abstain from reviewing somebody than hurt somebody. I am surprised at how nonchalant people are about damaging businesses here, there and everywhere. It's very cutthroat and unnecessary when the alternative is just go to 7-11, grab a slurpee and enjoy your day instead of picking up your phone to destroy a little piece of somebody and their business.

Again, I really can't agree with your take. If that's your stance, then what the heck is the point of a review system? Either give a glowing review, or don't give one at all, even though you were dissatisfied with some stuff?

As a customer, it's the 3 star reviews that I really turn to and get the most value out of, because those are probably the more honest ones, and less of a chance that they are fake (good or bad).

[topfiverecords]

I rate this thread 4 out of 5 stars, although that Sliver guy almost dragged it into a 3.

[woob]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Business owners are not your dancing monkey. They don't owe you some magical above and beyond experience. They're just people with their own stresses and lives as well, and shouldn't be penalized for merely offering you good service, good products and a good experience.

OK, but OP didn't get good products, good service, or a good experience. He had had to fight to get that, with a business owner who didn't want to provide those things without arguing/delaying/etc. Had he provided those things you speak of, FG probably would have given 5/5.

OPs honest review of his experience with a 3/5 is bang on.

[ResAlien]

So is the theory that all businesses are inherently good and provide good service/products and that customers are bad and unable to discern quality goods and services from poor? What value is there to turning a blind eye to bad businesses? This feels a lot less like a principled stance and a lot more like a personal vendetta against a bad review that cost someone business.

It makes sense to have reviews. Is it a perfect system of course not don’t be silly. But it does provide the customer, you know the person that the business cannot exist without, an avenue to gather information on a business. A few bad reviews sprinkled in amongst the good? Obviously not an issue and likely problematic customers in general. A trend of poor reviews that all identify the same issue? That’s downright a public service and can save a customer from a terrible experience with a bad company. Sweeping it under the rug and allowing more people to be duped just doesn’t make sense.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Sliver

This is kind of like the gun debate in the USA.

Reviews don't kill businesses, businesses kill businesses.

Is it possible some of you don't realize just how powerful a tool a review is? You should need a license or training before being allowed to one-star companies while taking a giant dump and not using a bidet or wet wipes after. You have every single business owner in this thread telling you guys a three is a damaging review and no review is better, yet people still feel justified in shooting a business in the leg for providing the service they expected, but not above and beyond quite enough.

Business owners are not your dancing monkey. They don't owe you some magical above and beyond experience. They're just people with their own stresses and lives as well, and shouldn't be penalized for merely offering you good service, good products and a good experience.

Hypothetically here, what if your competitor does go above and beyond and knows the first name of all their repeat customers, gives them a glass of wine while they wait, and offers wonderful advice to everyone coming in. And your business does everything correct, and orders are good, product is as advertised, but the staff has a lot of churn and doesn't know the regular customers etc.

Should both businesses get 5 stars? Shouldn't there be a mechanism to reward the business giving the better service?

Most of the restaurants I frequent are in the same price range, $80-150 for a couple depending on how much we drink or what eat that night. In our city, most of the good ones are chef owned, small independent restaurants. Some are clearly among the best restaurants around, and some are ok, but nothing special. The good ones usually get a tonne of 5 star reviews, and the just ok get a lot of 3 and 4, and that seems to me like the system is working in those cases.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

Again, I really can't agree with your take. If that's your stance, then what the heck is the point of a review system? Either give a glowing review, or don't give one at all, even though you were dissatisfied with some stuff?

As a customer, it's the 3 star reviews that I really turn to and get the most value out of, because those are probably the more honest ones, and less of a chance that they are fake (good or bad).

OMG, maybe I've been taking something for granted this whole time and this will help. What is the point of a review system? TO MAKE MONEY FOR THE HOST OF THE REVIEWS!

Think about it...it's a dynamic set up with all the power in the hands of customers, who provide free content to the review site at the grave expense of businesses. They're unmoderated and practically free to host, yet they drive tons of traffic.

Think of Yelp! when it was more popular...I had a bad review that was complete BS, so I contacted Yelp! naively thinking they would help with some moderation. Nope. Their solution was to have me pay to advertise with them. It's a total racket with a victim and a useful idiot perpetrator.

Now Google reviews are kind of the king. They drive traffic to Google.

What about Amazon...they have a lot of reviews, too. Yeah, they keep you on the site longer, which drives sales. More useful idiot stuff.

Literally every business owner I know feels exposed and victimized by reviews and we're defenseless against reviewers and the tech giants who encourage them. It's awful and I hope to see some legislative help at some point because it's a total scourge.

I've even been blackmailed (is that the right word?) by a customer. He completely abused his product from us in an egregious, ridiculous way, then one-starred us for giving him a "hunk of junk." I reached out to him to try to sort out what happened, and he just wanted a new one for free to take down the review. Cost me about $1000, but that was peanuts to get that review down versus the damage it would cause being up there for decades. Again, a total abuse.