The End of Great Films

[Coach]

The Big Short (Adam McKay still works on film)
Get Out
District 9
Parasite
Everything Everywhere All At Once
Jojo Rabbit
Spider-verse (a leap forward in animation, regardless of what you think about Superheroes or whatever)
Sorry To Bother You

Some are a matter of taste. I don't know how Jojo, EEAAO and Parasite can be described as "mediocre" though. I will and do watch those movies multiple times.

[#-3]

Haters gonna hate.

Lots of good movies, the judgement of movie industry industry awards regarding what is good and bad over the past 20 years has been a travesty of injustice and tokenism. The best movies are often ignored and some truly mediocre movies have been rewarded for being the types of films popular opinion wants to see succeed, rather than a judgment about what a successful movie actually looks like.

This summer has been particularly bad for uninspired content, but I think they is more of an echo of the pandemic, a two year log jam of underwhelming IP plays that investors needed to see released clogging the pipelines. Things will settle back down to normal soon.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Coach

Spider-verse (a leap forward in animation, regardless of what you think about Superheroes or whatever)

"Leap" forward? Classic Disney was a "leap", Japanese animation evolving into anime was a "leap." In terms of making the magic box do things, Reboot was a "leap." What did Spiderverse actually do other than make the magic box one and zero more and harder? It looks cool? So what? Anyone can make flashy and cool. Its not cool anymore.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

"Leap" forward? Classic Disney was a "leap", Japanese animation evolving into anime was a "leap." In terms of making the magic box do things, Reboot was a "leap." What did Spiderverse actually do other than make the magic box one and zero more and harder? It looks cool? So what? Anyone can make flashy and cool. Its not cool anymore.

So all those other instances are leaps, but we can't have more? It blended all those elements of 2-D and 3-D in a way that hadn't been combined before and utilize different styles of animation to tell the story. There's a reason TMNT looks the way it does, because Spiderverse tried something innovative and it worked. Now everyone's going to try and do that the same way everything after Toy Story did.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by jg13

I would argue that Robert Eggers The VVitch (2015), The Lighthouse (2019), The Northman (2022) and the remake to Nosferatu (2024) on the way, has been more impressive. Also, Ari Aster with Hereditary (2018), Midsommar (2019) and Beau Is Afraid (2023) is right up there next to Peele as well.

"Martin Scorsese Praises Ari Aster As “One of the Most Extraordinary New Voices in Cinema"

https://www.gq.com/story/ari-aster-m...-is-afraid-a24

There are plenty of new exciting directors that are making excellent film without massive budgets particularly through NEON and A24. I personally love where the state of film is.

I was going to say, Robert Eggers The Light House captures the imagination. It is one of the modern greats.

But in general I agree with Trad Ale. For whatever reasons I don't catch myself enjoying movies as much. Maybe its the social element like some were saying, maybe it is VFX and computer gen nonesense, but it is most likely that my own tastes have changed. I find it difficult to suspend belief, and really get into a movie. Even movies I really want to watch, I find it too easy to put them down.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Coach

So all those other instances are leaps, but we can't have more? It blended all those elements of 2-D and 3-D in a way that hadn't been combined before and utilize different styles of animation to tell the story. There's a reason TMNT looks the way it does, because Spiderverse tried something innovative and it worked. Now everyone's going to try and do that the same way everything after Toy Story did.

Stylistic experimentation does not constitute a leap.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Stylistic experimentation does not constitute a leap.

It seems like your problem is that it's done with a computer, and not on paper?

We're obviously not going to agree here. Animation is different now because the creators of Spiderverse tried something new. Saying something is a leap forward doesn't take away from the things that came before, and it doesn't mean that hand-drawn things still can't be great. It was a visualization that hadn't been executed before, and I came out of the theatre feeling like I had literally just lived through a comic book and that THAT was how animation would look going forward.

Would you say the same thing about music? Was Hendrix not a leap forward simply because he was playing Blues music at its base? He didn't invent a new instrument or new notes or something. He just played it in a way that no one else had done before.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Not to bring everything back to Dark Knight, but the moment the semi flips in the middle of Gotham was the last “oh wow” moment I had in a theatre.

Because they really flipped a truck in downtown Chicago.

That’s something about movies, for the most part, up until the end of the 20th century.

They’re really blowing something up.

They’re really chucking a stuntman through the air.

They’re really driving cars at high speeds.

They built a 4-mile stretch of highway to film the chase in Matrix Reloaded - that’s going to look good forever.

When the Titanic splits in half, that’s a real, to-scale model.

Every movie now has five minutes of VFX names attached to their end credits, and I can’t help but think of a story from the production of Empire Strikes Back where they spent like $100k trying to get a functional robotic 3P0 that could turn its head strapped to Chewie’s back.

The solution that made it into the film was “two guys and a fishing rod”.

So using your premise that "The Dark Knight is the last time a studio blockbuster captured the world’s imagination on the strength of its artistic merit."

what makes that movie so special other than the effects were "real"?
I saw it once and don't recall it being an all time masterpiece. Just a good bit of filmmaking like we see every year.

maybe you could say it was the beginning of the end of practical special effects over CGI or something, but it's no signpost for a generation or era of filmmaking.

[Matata]

The medium of film has been exhausted and the industry behind it is run by some of the worst predators in the world. When I look at my options for hobbies and entertainment, film is so far down the list. I've only watched 2 films in their entirety this calendar year: John Wick 4, Dungeons & Dragons and half of Django Unchained.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Matata

The medium of film has been exhausted and the industry behind it is run by some of the worst predators in the world. When I look at my options for hobbies and entertainment, film is so far down the list. I've only watched 2 films in their entirety this calendar year: John Wick 4, Dungeons & Dragons and half of Django Unchained.

Actually, the recent one was called Prey and it was pretty good.

[Ozy_Flame]

Ever find yourself browsing through Netflix or Crave and can't "find anything good?"

To be honest I think streaming services have watered down films. People are just pumping films out now to meet the constant rotation on these services, it stands to reason Hollywood is just opening the floodgates to even mediocre writers, directors and actors. Seems like meeting quotas more than anything these days.

I'm dating myself, but I miss the days of having a big movie being hyped for theatrical release. It was an event in an of itself, and you came out of those films with genuine contemplation for the story, acting, direction, etc.

I think many of us are just desensitized to a hyper-media world we can pull from in 2 seconds at our instant convenience.

[opendoor]

I don't really get holding the Dark Knight up as some kind of untouchable standard that hasn't been matched. It's good, but it's not like it was some masterpiece. I suspect it has more to do with it coming out and being part of the zeitgeist when you were 19 (if you're 34 now) than some kind of objective greatness. Just like a 50 year old might think that a movie like Pulp Fiction hasn't been matched since.

Anyway, the analog vs. digital medium issue is relevant in a lot of disciplines, but it absolutely isn't with movies. The cost of film in any decent sized production was basically a rounding error. I think 35mm cost about $75/minute in today's dollars. So with a normal 1:20 shooting ratio, film would cost about $175K for an average big budget movie. So if directors were ever avoiding extra takes or whatnot due to cost, it was because of crew and talent costs, not because they wanted to save a few thousand dollars in film.

Obviously there are other differences, but most of the limitations of film were basically non-issues for larger productions (i.e. they used video taps to get a live feed of what the film camera was seeing, they had enough crew to make film changeovers as fast as possible, etc.). And it's not like storing 8K video and having enough redundancy is without its own costs and workflow.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Coach

It seems like your problem is that it's done with a computer, and not on paper?

I don't have a problem with computers, its that people seem to think that stuff made on it, no matter how stylistically peculiar, is anything other than just another really nice looking Big Mac.

We're obviously not going to agree here. Animation is different now because the creators of Spiderverse tried something new. Saying something is a leap forward doesn't take away from the things that came before, and it doesn't mean that hand-drawn things still can't be great. It was a visualization that hadn't been executed before, and I came out of the theatre feeling like I had literally just lived through a comic book and that THAT was how animation would look going forward.

Saying something is a leap forward when it isn't is disingenuous. I saw the movie, and I did feel like I lived through a comic book. And it was "cool" and that is it. It didn't feel particularly "impressive", which would be the most milquetoast of adjectives for something being heralded as a "leap."

Would you say the same thing about music? Was Hendrix not a leap forward simply because he was playing Blues music at its base? He didn't invent a new instrument or new notes or something. He just played it in a way that no one else had done before.

It came out of his body on an instrument that is depicted in hieroglyphics dating as old as 1400 BC. Western music is made up of 12 notes, regardless of genre. So yes, Hendrix was a great big giant effing leap forward. But to be fair, he benefitted greatly from being 14 years old when the electric guitar was invented. Right guy in the right time for a metaphorical musical gold rush. Kind of like with computing power and the original Matrix (and all the crazy innovative camera work and everything else that movie invented that became entirely mainstream).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Ever find yourself browsing through Netflix or Crave and can't "find anything good?"

To be honest I think streaming services have watered down films. People are just pumping films out now to meet the constant rotation on these services, it stands to reason Hollywood is just opening the floodgates to even mediocre writers, directors and actors. Seems like meeting quotas more than anything these days.

I'm dating myself, but I miss the days of having a big movie being hyped for theatrical release. It was an event in an of itself, and you came out of those films with genuine contemplation for the story, acting, direction, etc.

I think many of us are just desensitized to a hyper-media world we can pull from in 2 seconds at our instant convenience.

I agree with this. I have to say, going to Barbie did give me the "event" feeling that I hadn't felt since, to the OPs point, The Dark Knight. Infinity War/Endgame sort of gave me that feeling, but it did also feel like that was exclusive amongst the people who actually followed all of the series. I went to Barbie and everyone was wearing pink and you could feel the excitement around it. And, to be honest, I haven't laughed that consistently in a movie for a long time. I really enjoyed it. It was a unique movie.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't really get holding the Dark Knight up as some kind of untouchable standard that hasn't been matched. It's good, but it's not like it was some masterpiece. I suspect it has more to do with it coming out and being part of the zeitgeist when you were 19 (if you're 34 now) than some kind of objective greatness. Just like a 50 year old might think that a movie like Pulp Fiction hasn't been matched since.

Dark Knight was more than a good movie, it legitimized super hero movies and ushered in an era where the most important movie events were almost exclusively super hero movies.

It feels to me like that era has just ended and now we are entering the Barbinhimer era. Prepare for a lot of block busters focused on societal critique.

[nfotiu]

Studios only putting big money into proven franchises has crowded out the opportunities for more creative blockbusters. That's probably a bit cyclical though, with the big franchises getting very tired, and flopping.

The biggest threat to feature length movies is the creative talent moving to streaming series. The creators get more leeway to be creative, and instant success isn't required.
The other problem with movies now, is that it is all about the opening weekend, and no one is greenlighting a film that might take time to grow an audience.

Movie theaters are also in trouble, and the writer/actor strike could be the final nail in the coffin if they don't resolve it soon. Without movie theaters, the 2 hour feature film format will mostly die off.

[Playfair]

We just don't get the movies like we used to, the epic, well acted, directed stories.

Schindler's List
Life is Beautiful
Gone With the Wind
Forest Gump
Braveheart
Bridge Over the River Kwai

I don't know, just to name a few. I realize it is all subjective. But the point I am making is you don't get the performance of a Tom Hanks, or a story telling of Life is Beautiful in most movies these days. Times change I guess, so do our tastes.

[Swift]

I'm just happy that in Oppenheimer, there is a 3 hour drama made for adults that is selling out theatres. Hopefully that leads to studios greenlighting more of that kind of film, though I won't hold my breath.

[Wormius]

The problem is comparing the best of pre-digital / heavy CGI augmented movies with the mediocre of later years. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison between Silence of the Lambs and the latest Marvel stuff.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Wormius

The problem is comparing the best of pre-digital / heavy CGI augmented movies with the mediocre of later years. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison between Silence of the Lambs and the latest Marvel stuff.

For sure. I don't think Iron Bitch 3 or Captain Boyscout Infinity Bore are going to be a part of film school.