Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[Wormius]

Saw a Lucid Motors sedan driving along Country Hills Blvd. Interesting looking thing. Had a funky looking mat and cylinder on the roof. Wonder what it was doing.

Edit: it was this one -

https://twitter.com/user/status/1566265432444932097

[Fuzz]

https://www.theautopian.com/quantron...iles-of-range/

A couple hydrogen stories here.

Truck company Quantron just unveiled its QHM FCEV 60-2000 truck, a hydrogen-powered rig that’s expected to pack up to 1,500 km (932 mi.) of range. Perhaps more surprisingly, Quantron unveiled another rig with an estimated 1,500 km of range called the QHM FCEV 44-2000.

Hydrogen for big rigs makes a lot of sense. I do wonder if it would make sense to have a smaller battery pack as well, so you could use regenerative braking and deploy that for acceleration, instead of wasting it as friction.

Hyundai and Iveco have unveiled something new at IAA Transportation 2022, a Hyundai fuel cell stuffed into an Iveco chassis cab. While it remains a prototype for now, it holds incredible promise regarding the future of commercial vehicles.

I remember someone here declared hydrogen dead, but I think there is potential in the right areas. I assume you also don't have the 30% loss of range in winter like you do with an EV, so passenger vehicles might make some sense in colder climates.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.theautopian.com/quantron...iles-of-range/

A couple hydrogen stories here.

Hydrogen for big rigs makes a lot of sense. I do wonder if it would make sense to have a smaller battery pack as well, so you could use regenerative braking and deploy that for acceleration, instead of wasting it as friction.

Hydrogen vehicles all utilize batteries and would be set up with re-gen braking.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Hydrogen vehicles all utilize batteries and would be set up with re-gen braking.

I haven't seen that "as a rule", I presume each manufacturer would make that decision. What vehicle have you seen that in?

[Regorium]

Finally took delivery of my Audi Q4 after 1.5 years. It's a great car so far. Not super techy, basically a normal car in electric form.

Can't believe it took them that long to roll out a few vehicles to the Canadian market, but finally happy to be fully electrified!

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I haven't seen that "as a rule", I presume each manufacturer would make that decision. What vehicle have you seen that in?

Hydrogen in an automotive environment is always in a fuel cell configuration. A fuel cell converts the hydrogen in electricity which powers electric motors and these are all battery and re-gen equipped. Look up the info on the Toyota Mirai or the Ballard Power hydrogen busses.

[Fuzz]

I guess that makes sense, I forgot they conversion isn't instantly used, so you need a buffer battery.

[powderjunkie]

A bit of a random thought in line with my usual rant, but I've realized I have 'battery anxiety' a lot more than 'range anxiety'...and I bet I'm not alone.

The potential for a 5 figure repair bill scares me more than having to re-charge frequently on a road-trip.

It sucks that range is the main metric everyone has decided to compete on.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Saw a Lucid Motors sedan driving along Country Hills Blvd. Interesting looking thing. Had a funky looking mat and cylinder on the roof. Wonder what it was doing.

Edit: it was this one -

https://twitter.com/user/status/1566265432444932097

A lot to be intrigued about with Lucid, but I wish they would improve the design - it is just so vanilla.

Without the 'Lucid' wrap, and the giant bell on top, would you even take a second look at that car?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

A bit of a random thought in line with my usual rant, but I've realized I have 'battery anxiety' a lot more than 'range anxiety'...and I bet I'm not alone.

The potential for a 5 figure repair bill scares me more than having to re-charge frequently on a road-trip.

It sucks that range is the main metric everyone has decided to compete on.

How long are the batteries under warranty? Looking at Tesla's website - it look like 8 years or 70% capacity. Do the warranties not cover most failures?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

A bit of a random thought in line with my usual rant, but I've realized I have 'battery anxiety' a lot more than 'range anxiety'...and I bet I'm not alone.

The potential for a 5 figure repair bill scares me more than having to re-charge frequently on a road-trip.

It sucks that range is the main metric everyone has decided to compete on.

Almost every manufacturer has an 8 year warranty on the battery and with Vinfast you actually only lease the battery even if you buy the car

[dino7c]

After 8-10 years is it feasible to replace the battery? Doesn't seem very environmentally friendly if the cars end up at the wrecker in 8 years

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dino7c

After 8-10 years is it feasible to replace the battery? Doesn't seem very environmentally friendly if the cars end up at the wrecker in 8 years

No. Gas vehicles have a 3 or 5 year limited warranty on the engine and we don't throw those out. It's too early to have examples as there's very few electric vehicles that are 8 years old, but there's zero reason to think the vehicles won't last just as long or longer than combustion vehicles

[powderjunkie]

I also wonder what it's going to do to re-sale values, especially as we are basically discovering the IRL longevity on the fly.

I don't know anything about how the batteries actually work...hopefully the transmission (in the most literal sense of the word) elements are repair/replaceable, and the batteries are able to keep functioning despite some dead cells (with lower capacity of course).

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

No. Gas vehicles have a 3 or 5 year limited warranty on the engine and we don't throw those out. It's too early to have examples as there's very few electric vehicles that are 8 years old, but there's zero reason to think the vehicles won't last just as long or longer than combustion vehicles

Warranty is one thing but it's not like many cars engine will blow after 3-5 years if taken care of properly. I have a 2007 Tahoe that runs as well as the day I bought it. Batteries and the cost of replacing them is certainly a reason to think an electric car won't last as long....it's already happening with Hybrids. My Yukon Hybrid needed a new battery and it wasn't worth replacing.

It willing be something to watch. If you can replace the battery for a reasonable cost they could last longer but if it's costs almost as much as a new car it's not gonna happen.

I'm not trying to be anti electric car or fear mongering like I see on Facebook...there is some reality to it though...this can be improved with technology to be sure.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Warranty is one thing but it's not like many cars engine will blow after 3-5 years if taken care of properly. I have a 2007 Tahoe that runs as well as the day I bought it. Batteries and the cost of replacing them is certainly a reason to think an electric car won't last as long....it's already happening with Hybrids. My Yukon Hybrid needed a new battery and it wasn't worth replacing.

It willing be something to watch. If you can replace the battery for a reasonable cost they could last longer but if it's costs almost as much as a new car it's not gonna happen.

I'm not trying to be anti electric car or fear mongering like I see on Facebook...there is some reality to it though...this can be improved with technology to be sure.

There's zero reason to think a battery won't last as long or longer than an engine. Zero. The point I made about the battery warranty is that the warranty and the expected life of the battery have nothing to do with each other just like with the engine and their warranties.


The oldest mass produced electric car is the leaf and some of those batteries have lost a lot of capacity but they were never thermally managed or charge limited like every other model out there now. There's Tesla's that are over 500,000 miles and still have the original battery. Toyota Prius Hybrids have a battery and they never need replacing.

It's a non issue

[Fuzz]

It's not ideal, but they don't do too badly:




https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla...n-replacement/

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's not ideal, but they don't do too badly:




https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla...n-replacement/

I think perspective is important too. That chart only deals with capacity. An internal combustion engine fails far more often and also becomes less fuel efficient with use (ie range goes down too). We will likely see even less of this with every new battery technology iteration, but it's already not an issue.

[Wormius]

I’d look more at comparing maintenance costs of gas engines and the replacement cost of battery pack. With the battery pack it’s pretty much a replacement only concern, whereas with ICU you’re looking at incremental costs, because nobody is just switching out a whole gas engine.

Over the life of a battery do you come out ahead if you did need a replacement after warranty expired? I think I’d be more concerned with the vehicle depreciation as you get closer to it’s EOL. Anyone looking at a used one is probably thinking about that upcoming expenditure.

[Fuzz]

I don't think you can compare range drop with age in an ICE to a BEV, becuase the consequence in a BEV is worse(longer charging times, more charging stops) whereas in a gas vehicle you just have to refill slightly more often, which is pretty low consequence in comparison. So I don't really like that rebuttal. That's not to say I think old batteries are a big issue(as the chart shows). Perhaps they will look worse on a used market though, as new technologies and batteries enable longer ranges, so a 2030 Model G with 800km range will look a lot more attractive than a used Model 3 with 300km range left.