Star Wars

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Plus, they got Alec Guinness' voice to say "Rey" during that flashback in TFA. Turns out, that was a great big nothing burger.

Great story telling guys.

After TFA I had such high hopes for an awesome story arc. The flaws of the movies has been discussed ad nauseum, but one thing seemingly no one talks about is how infallible Rey became. So much promise for a great story surrounding here in TFA, then it falls apart. For God's sake, even Luke needed training and help every step of the way during his journey, meanwhile Rey just decides to become a Jedi like it ain't no thang. Where's the journey? Where are the setbacks and redemption? I suppose her character development is intertwined with the plot which was ####ty, but still.

That was directed by Kennedy who wanted a super powerful female hero that could sell lunch boxes.


I mean yeah, she's related to Palpatine, probably the most powerful Sith in history and probably one of the most powerful Force Users anywhere, but I doubt he just was born evil and was flinging furniture around when he was 6. (The book Plagueis lays that out, but its legends sadly).


That's why I went with the clone of Anakin or Palpatine theory. And that whole Rey snapping her fingers in the mirror scene in TLJ made a ton of sense to me at the time. Now it just turns out I guess, that it looked cool but had no meaning.


I didn't see the mannerisms of Kenobi in her, I must have missed it, the only thing that was similar was that she was english, to me. I thought she had a lot of similar mannerisms to Anakin, and fought like a hybrid of Anakin and Sidious. If you look at her first fight with Ren, they lifted a lot of fight choreography from the Anakin fight against Dooku, and also Sidious versus Mace.

[CroFlames]

I have daughters and I'm cheering for a strong female hero as much as anyone. Luke became a character than transcended generations of fans because of his difficult journeys and mistakes.

Rey just becomes an infallible uberJedi without any hardship. Boring, lame and forgettable.

I just wish one day studios and corporations will let their creative people just be creative instead of force feeding focus group ideas into movies and videogames.

[nik-]

That's just it. Be inclusive, it's a great standard to push for, but it better not be the totality of the merits of your product. If your story is trash, it's trash, no matter how many women directors or minorities were in the movie.

[Fuzz]

I'm all for removing TLJ and ROS from canon. Nothing that happened in any of them needs to be brought up again.

[CaptainCrunch]

To me to fix the Star Wars universe


1) Re-Canonize the Legends EU. Integrate stories to the end of Return of the Jedi back into Canon. Reach back out to the writers in the EU world that were effectively barred from writing Star Wars and beg them to come back.


2) Decide on the fate of the ST, but I think we have to accept it as Canon and the post Civil War stories leading up to the last movie.


3) Remove Kathleen Kennedy, ask Filoni and his team to become the guardians of lore, any creative story based decision goes through them.


4) Bring back George as all things all encompassing story. then use other directors and producers to make them come to life.


5) Do a 15 minute film where we see flashes of the ST and then Luke wakes up screaming and the Yoda ghost says "A vision you had, not decided yet it is"


6) Get right away from the Skywalker universe for a decade. no ST or PT or add on movies around the Galactic Civil War. Focus on other times and characters, maybe take a total break from the Jedi Sith Wars.

[1qqaaz]

Completely agree with every point. Haha even 5.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me to fix the Star Wars universe


1) Re-Canonize the Legends EU. Integrate stories to the end of Return of the Jedi back into Canon. Reach back out to the writers in the EU world that were effectively barred from writing Star Wars and beg them to come back.


2) Decide on the fate of the ST, but I think we have to accept it as Canon and the post Civil War stories leading up to the last movie.


3) Remove Kathleen Kennedy, ask Filoni and his team to become the guardians of lore, any creative story based decision goes through them.


4) Bring back George as all things all encompassing story. then use other directors and producers to make them come to life.


5) Do a 15 minute film where we see flashes of the ST and then Luke wakes up screaming and the Yoda ghost says "A vision you had, not decided yet it is"


6) Get right away from the Skywalker universe for a decade. no ST or PT or add on movies around the Galactic Civil War. Focus on other times and characters, maybe take a total break from the Jedi Sith Wars.

I think they need a huge time jump. Take a little break, then have the next movie take place hundreds of years in the future, where force users have been banned/purged from the galaxy. Then maybe we can learn of a clandestine organization that protects force users and does "good" from the shawdows. To me, that is more interesting than a huge army of space wizards and constant retreds.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by nik-

That's just it. Be inclusive, it's a great standard to push for, but it better not be the totality of the merits of your product. If your story is trash, it's trash, no matter how many women directors or minorities were in the movie.

Sci-fi has always been a relatively inclusive genre. The inclusion has to grow organically from the plot though. There are so many example of great sci-fi heroins already: Ripley, Sara Connor, Dana Scully, Starbuck, Leia, etc...So it's not that hard to pull off in a believable way.

I actually think that Rey would have been a great addition to that list, had they handled it correctly. She should have been defeated in TFA by Kylo (who has far more training at that point), and himself comes from a powerful bloodline. The next movie should have focused on her learning to be a force use and then some kind of conclusion. It was also a prime opportunity to explore feminist issues by painting Kylo as a misogynist. In the first few films, the Empire was always a stand-in for fascist and supremacist ideology. They could have continued to explore that in a modern day context, without significantly disturbing the existing canon.

A clumsy handling of things and a wasted opportunity all around.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

I think they need a huge time jump. Take a little break, then have the next movie take place hundreds of years in the future, where force users have been banned/purged from the galaxy. Then maybe we can learn of a clandestine organization that protects force users and does "good" from the shawdows. To me, that is more interesting than a huge army of space wizards and constant retreds.

Yes, but opposite. How about hundreds of years in the past during the height of the republic and Jedi order. Or maybe thousands of years in the past during the formation of the republic itself and the events leading up to it. You still got force users and Jedi but it's a totally new canvas to create stories on.

Let's face it, Jedi are the biggest draw of Star Wars fandom.

[Inglewood Jack]

if they wanna go the Marvel route, start a bunch of different threads with characters that are contemporaries, and slowly unite them Avengers style to do battle with Abeloth or the Yuuzhan Vong. as long as they've got the right person in charge of the overarching story, this could print them money for a decade or more.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

if they wanna go the Marvel route, start a bunch of different threads with characters that are contemporaries, and slowly unite them Avengers style to do battle with Abeloth or the Yuuzhan Vong. as long as they've got the right person in charge of the overarching story, this could print them money for a decade or more.

Don't really see the purpose of that. A crossover event? That would be a huge challenge, as unlike Marvel, they would have to come up with entirely new characters.


I like the idea of having lots of characters in a shared universe and having cameos with multiple characters is great. However, I'd prefer if the focus in Star Wars remained on individual storylines.

If anything, having Star Wars influenced by Marvel is a major part of why the new trilogy was so cringy at times. We don't need the quips and subversion in the Star Wars universe. Star Wars also already has a fan base that will allow Disney to print money. They just need to keep focusing on making good Star Wars content that is true to its source. Making Star Wars in to Marvel or Pirates of the Caribbean is only going to further off put their existing fan base.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes, but opposite. How about hundreds of years in the past during the height of the republic and Jedi order. Or maybe thousands of years in the past during the formation of the republic itself and the events leading up to it. You still got force users and Jedi but it's a totally new canvas to create stories on.

Let's face it, Jedi are the biggest draw of Star Wars fandom.

They're already working on a animated series of the height of the Republic which is I think a couple of hundred years before the events of the prequel. Whether they include the hidden Sith in there it could be interesting since there's so little known about the Sith at that time (I think it would have certainly been pre Tenebrous if they kept him (Which they should he was interesting).


I've said that the Old Republic could make an interesting trilogy.



The great Jedi Schism where the Jedi split into the dark and the light and lead to a major civil war. Eventually the Dark Jedi lost and were banished and became the Sith. (1000 years of darkness)


The great Jedi and Sith war that lead to the Ruusan Resolution where the Jedi de-militarized and became more philsopher then Warrior. It also lead to the great betrayal of the Sith by Darth Bane who then created the rule of two (I would love a Bane trilogy by the way)


Even a story that doesn't involve the Sith which was Pius Dea era of the republic where religious anti alien fanatics gained power in the Republic and launched their own version of the inquisition, The Jedi eventually left the republic over it and then over threw the government.


If they ever go hundreds of years in the future, I don't want any Darths or Sith Lords, as far as I'm concerned the Sith ended with Palpatine's death and all of that knowledge was lost since he didn't have an apprentice.

[Inglewood Jack]

Originally Posted by blankall

Don't really see the purpose of that. A crossover event? That would be a huge challenge, as unlike Marvel, they would have to come up with entirely new characters.


I like the idea of having lots of characters in a shared universe and having cameos with multiple characters is great. However, I'd prefer if the focus in Star Wars remained on individual storylines.

If anything, having Star Wars influenced by Marvel is a major part of why the new trilogy was so cringy at times. We don't need the quips and subversion in the Star Wars universe. Star Wars also already has a fan base that will allow Disney to print money. They just need to keep focusing on making good Star Wars content that is true to its source. Making Star Wars in to Marvel or Pirates of the Caribbean is only going to further off put their existing fan base.

as far as Marvel route goes, I don't mean Joss Whedon style one-liners and visual gags. Star Wars should stick to a similar tone as the OT or Mandalorian as much as it can. I meant borrowing Marvel's structured buildup to huge event tentpoles. everyone watched the crap out of the Avengers movies cause they had invested in at least some of the individual threads leading up to them.

I don't even think new characters should necessarily be a problem, if anything people complain that there's been too much Skywalker/Solo/Organa as it is. as long as you've got characters in the Star Wars template, i.e. a lighsaber dude, a blaster chick, some dry british wit droid, a grunting alien, then the audience will able to pick up on those pretty easily. I doubt that the majority of the Marvel moviegoers had read even a single comic book page going into those films, and might only have known the names of the biggest characters by cultural osmosis.

they can try keeping all the movies separate from each other and they will still make money as long as KK isn't screwing with them, but they'll never reach the same highs without a Thanos at the end. today's audience is very much attuned to the serialized format, so might as well take advantage of that. and maybe it doesn't even have to be movies at all. do it all on TV and take the Disney+ subscriptions to breathless new heights.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

as far as Marvel route goes, I don't mean Joss Whedon style one-liners and visual gags. Star Wars should stick to a similar tone as the OT or Mandalorian as much as it can. I meant borrowing Marvel's structured buildup to huge event tentpoles. everyone watched the crap out of the Avengers movies cause they had invested in at least some of the individual threads leading up to them.

I don't even think new characters should necessarily be a problem, if anything people complain that there's been too much Skywalker/Solo/Organa as it is. as long as you've got characters in the Star Wars template, i.e. a lighsaber dude, a blaster chick, some dry british wit droid, a grunting alien, then the audience will able to pick up on those pretty easily. I doubt that the majority of the Marvel moviegoers had read even a single comic book page going into those films, and might only have known the names of the biggest characters by cultural osmosis.

they can try keeping all the movies separate from each other and they will still make money as long as KK isn't screwing with them, but they'll never reach the same highs without a Thanos at the end. today's audience is very much attuned to the serialized format, so might as well take advantage of that. and maybe it doesn't even have to be movies at all. do it all on TV and take the Disney+ subscriptions to breathless new heights.

There was time when the main Star Wars movies themselves were the tentpole, and no side movie buildups were required. TFA is still 4th all time in box office gross. The main thing that separates TFA from the highest grossing Marvel film, Endgame, was Disney's pandering to China with the Marvel series.

The buildup strategy has also been shown to be very difficult to pull off. DC, the "Dark Universe", etc.. have all failed at it. If Star Wars' main product is on the level of "Solo" they are likely to fail too.

Star Wars just needs to get back to writing good stories.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Inglewood Jack

if they wanna go the Marvel route, start a bunch of different threads with characters that are contemporaries, and slowly unite them Avengers style to do battle with Abeloth or the Yuuzhan Vong.

Please, no Yuuzhan Vong. They always felt like such a "whatever" villain insert. I didn't really like the series of books and I don't think it would do much better on the big screen.

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes, but opposite. How about hundreds of years in the past during the height of the republic and Jedi order. Or maybe thousands of years in the past during the formation of the republic itself and the events leading up to it. You still got force users and Jedi but it's a totally new canvas to create stories on.

Let's face it, Jedi are the biggest draw of Star Wars fandom.

Forward or back, the point is to get far away from any direct connections to current characters and plot. My problem with prequels is the stakes never seem real as you always know where things are going to ultimately end up. Also, for Star Wars there are already lots of historical stories out there, so you are going to end up with the same problems with legends conflict, and whatnot.

[chemgear]

https://www.bestbuy.ca/en-ca/product...r-6qt/14495768

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Rogue One on TV. I just watched the Vader scene like 10 times in a row. Goosebumps every time. That is, without question, the greatest 30s in SW history. The music, the action, the straight fear amongst the rebels, the kick ass Vader fighting with saber and force.

I’d been given a hint about the Vader scene before I saw it in theatres (just that it was awesome, no specific details) and it still blew me away. I was so overwhelmed by emotion I almost cried.

I hate to say it but nothing in the new trilogy gave me that feeling. Not even close. Seriously. It was better characterization for Vader than any character got in the new trilogy across 3 movies. And he didn’t utter a single ####ing word.

If you saw Rogue One before ANH, the anticipation for this insane badass MF would be off the charts.

Instead we got an SNL quality parody of a real villain in Hux, emo Kylo and a dead guy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its really funny, because Rogue One really changed the opening scene of ANH, especially if you watch the Prequels first.

Pre Rogue One, when Vader strode into ANH, you had just seen him trapped by Sidious' planning and brilliance. While you thought he was powerful, there was still that reminder that he was a good man that in his thirst for power had destroyed everything that had meaning to him. There was a tint of sadness, and a look at what he had become.

When you add Rogue One, you see how powerful and driven by rage he was, by the time of ANH he had been driven so far into the dark side that things like blowing up planets and mass murder didn't really bother him.

Then when you add in Rebels and Clone Wars you realize how far away from redemption he really was and by the time of the end of Rebels he wasn't interested in redemption or even forgiveness.

The underlying feeling before Rogue One was that inside the suit Vader was a somehow pathetic person that gave himself completely to his fate, but at the same time he hated what he had become. In the new Star Wars Lore, you don't get that sense until midway through Return of the Jedi.

And yeah, watching Rogue One, the OT, Clone Wars, and Rebels and to a small extent the PT you realize how poor quality the writing and characters were in the ST, especially on the evil side.


Side note, no character was ruined more the Palpatine by his 15 or so minutes of time in ROS. He went from a subtle brilliant, powerful embodiment of evil, to a cackling silly poorly thought out version of Voldemort.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Rogue One on TV. I just watched the Vader scene like 10 times in a row. Goosebumps every time. That’s is, without question, the greatest 30s in SW history. The music, the action, the straight fear amongst the rebels, the kick ass Vader fighting with saber and force.

I’d been given a hint about the Vader scene before I saw it in theatres (just that it was awesome, no specific details) and it still blew me away. I was so overwhelmed by emotion I almost cried.

I hate to say it but nothing in the new trilogy gave me that feeling. Not even close. Seriously. It was better characterization for Vader than any character got in the new trilogy across 3 movies. And he didn’t utter a single ####ing word.

If you saw Rogue One before ANH, the anticipation for this insane badass MF would be off the charts.

Instead we got an SNL quality parody of a real villain in Hux, emo Kylo and a dead guy.

Not saying I disagree with you, but there was one part that gave me some emotional tugs.

Max Von Sydow: "The General? For me, she's Royalty"