[PGT] Leafs 2 Flames 1

[dammage79]

You know who I thought stood out in a good way yesterday? Oliver Kylington. To my eyes he definitely appears to have taken a step.

Yeah yeah small sample size but I liked what I watched from him.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Yes, we likely disagree.

I think the team is capable of something closer to the results they got in the first 3/4 season of 2 years ago than the .500 bone dry ineffective hockey that we are seeing now.

Genuinely curious as to why, when the two years preceding that, and then following the allstar/cba break they were pretty much the same thing.

One is a much bigger sample size than the other, but you think the smaller one is more indicative of what they should be. Im just not sure how that adds up.

I guess I would frame it this way..

If Bill Peters was brought back (sans all the noise he has around him), do you think the club would resemble that 60 game segment before the break, or the one we have seen before that and since?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Genuinely curious as to why, when the two years preceding that, and then following the allstar/cba break they were pretty much the same thing.

One is a much bigger sample size than the other, but you think the smaller one is more indicative of what they should be. Im just not sure how that adds up.

I guess I would frame it this way..

If Bill Peters was brought back (sans all the noise he has around him), do you think the club would resemble that 60 game segment before the break, or the one we have seen before that and since?

This is my post from the Geoff Ward thread but works here too.

They maybe aren't as elite as they showed to start that season when they were on a bit of a shooting/save percentage bender.

But overall prior to last season this was a team that was really good at 5v5 that had poor shooting percentage, and really poor goaltending.

Goaltending has been fixed but Ward has them playing worse everywhere else on the ice.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's not an elite group, but it's still a pretty good roster that has performed a lot better than what Ward has gotten from them the last two seasons.

Over a three season span this core was getting top 10 results pretty much across the board but was getting poor goaltending and had a low shooting percentage.

Lets look at the 2016-2019 period in the regular season prior to the debacle against Colorado.

Points %: .579 (14th)
Goals For/60: 2.43 (13th)
Goals Against/60: 2.32 (12th)
Goal For %: 51.2% (13th)
xGF%: 51.5% (10th)

Corsi For/60: 59.6 (6th)
Corsi Against/60: 53.6 (4th)
Corsi %: 52.7 (3rd)

High Danger For/60: 10.9 (12th)
High Danger Against/60: 9.9 (9th)
High Danger %: 52.3% (9th)

Shooting Percentage: 7.84% (15th)
Save Percentage: .919 (23rd)

This was a top 10 roster in terms of generating and limiting shots and chances but were just getting terrible goaltending and had a low shooting percentage. And now that problem should be fixed with Markstrom and Rittich being a really good tandem, and the team shooting percentage being a lot higher than it was those three seasons too.

But the problem is in the 2 years since that playoff loss the team changed their systems to be more defensive and "heavier playoff hockey" and it just hasn't worked with this core.

Ward's point percentage is the same as this core the prior three years, so that looks okay. But he's getting top 6 goaltending compared to 23rd ranked goaltending. Meaning this team has fallen off pretty much everywhere else on the ice under him.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Genuinely curious as to why, when the two years preceding that, and then following the allstar/cba break they were pretty much the same thing.

I might be wrong I seem to remember that after the break Peters was going on and on about how they need to focus more on defense to get ready for the Playoffs, and that's when it seemed like we lost all offensive punch. It seemed like he changed up the system to give up less, and that resulted less chances at the other end.

It was the same thing to start this season. First few games they were flying and the D were jumping up to clear the zone and join the rush. 5 day break comes along and Ward is preaching about working on the system over the break they came back and looked neutered again on offense.

[GioforPM]

I think a lot of these runs has to do with Johnny, and to a lesser extent Monahan, Lindholm and Tkachuk “feeling it”. Johnny’s game is driven on a combination of confidence, determination and a bit of luck (meaning he tries a whole bunch of things that are probably low percentage but sometimes work out great in bunches). I think he is a very hot and cold player. Purple drink days - he was feeling it. First couple years - feeling it. And defenders have figured out it’s not that hard to make him not feel t.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

As for being a top team? Should be, based on the lineup. Not happening under this coach

I think this is where some of the disconnect is happening between some of the posters here (between myself and you as well I'm guessing?).

Honest question - is there a chance this roster just isn't as good as you think it should be?

I agree with Jiri and a few others here - obviously the goaltending this season is great, I like the blueline a lot for the most part (too bad Gio is declining), but the forwards I really don't like much at all. They are pretty slow. We do not have an elite center. The 4th line is pretty bad and doesn't bring any energy. The forwards are wildly inconsistent. Look at the team's highest paid player - he can have great games, but he's slow and there's been many games this season I forgot he was even playing. That's your highest paid guy. That's not good. There's some nice pieces mixed in there, but overall I don't think it's a great/fast/consistent group at all.

I think some posters that think this is a very good/elite/contending team on paper put the vast majority of blame on the coach/systems. I get that.

And I think that some posters that like some of this team but don't see it as an elite team at all have no problem shipping the coach out but think the bigger issue is the makeup of the team, mainly the forward group.

I get both arguments. But I just don't see an elite/contending team, even on paper.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I think this is where some of the disconnect is happening between some of the posters here (between myself and you as well I'm guessing?).

Honest question - is there a chance this roster just isn't as good as you think it should be?

I agree with Jiri and a few others here - obviously the goaltending this season is great, I like the blueline a lot for the most part (too bad Gio is declining), but the forwards I really don't like much at all. They are pretty slow. We do not have an elite center. The 4th line is pretty bad and doesn't bring any energy. The forwards are wildly inconsistent. Look at the team's highest paid player - he can have great games, but he's slow and there's been many games this season I forgot he was even playing. That's your highest paid guy. That's not good. There's some nice pieces mixed in there, but overall I don't think it's a great/fast/consistent group at all.

I think some posters that think this is a very good/elite/contending team on paper put the vast majority of blame on the coach/systems. I get that.

And I think that some posters that like some of this team but don't see it as an elite team at all have no problem shipping the coach out but think the bigger issue is the makeup of the team, mainly the forward group.

I get both arguments. But I just don't see an elite/contending team, even on paper.

I have no thanks but thanks. This is my opinion as well, right down to the major flaw in the forwards - just not enough speed. It does so many things to help with breakout, backing off the D. I think Johnny’s early success was in part because defenders thought he was a shade faster and they had to be careful lest he bust around them. Now they know he’s only average speed and they can play a little tighter to him.

I think Dube and Mangiapane are pretty fast but then again, I’m comparing them to other Flames.

I know the Flames have used a skating coach from time to time but I think they could really use sending some of these guys to skating school for the whole off season. Especially Tkachuk.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I have no thanks but thanks. This is my opinion as well, right down to the major flaw in the forwards - just not enough speed. It does so many things to help with breakout, backing off the D. I think Johnny’s early success was in part because defenders thought he was a shade faster and they had to be careful lest he bust around them. Now they know he’s only average speed and they can play a little tighter to him.

I think Dube and Mangiapane are pretty fast but then again, I’m comparing them to other Flames.

I know the Flames have used a skating coach from time to time but I think they could really use sending some of these guys to skating school for the whole off season. Especially Tkachuk.

I think the one thing we all agree on most: Treliving is absolutely dead wrong. The answer is not in the room. And if he really believes it is then he is lost.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I think the one thing we all agree on most: Treliving is absolutely dead wrong. The answer is not in the room. And if he really believes it is then he is lost.

The answer to a cup isn’t in the room. The answer to improved play may be. But what’s he gonna say - “I don’t think my players are good”? Or “I don’t think Ward is any good”?

[Stanley]

Last night was as simple as scoring on the empty net and it woulda been done. Is it just me or does this team suck at scoring empty netters?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I have no thanks but thanks. This is my opinion as well, right down to the major flaw in the forwards - just not enough speed. It does so many things to help with breakout, backing off the D. I think Johnny’s early success was in part because defenders thought he was a shade faster and they had to be careful lest he bust around them. Now they know he’s only average speed and they can play a little tighter to him.

I think Dube and Mangiapane are pretty fast but then again, I’m comparing them to other Flames.

I know the Flames have used a skating coach from time to time but I think they could really use sending some of these guys to skating school for the whole off season. Especially Tkachuk.

Speed up front is an issue for sure, And that's a bit of the issue we have.

We aren't very big or physical up front.
We aren't very fast up front.

Our forward group is really built on hockey sense and puck skills but is lacking in some of the key physical attributes.

Adding to that problem though is the team is playing a system that is tailored more to speed and physicality (which we lack) instead of playing a system more tailored to leveraging the hockey sense and puck skills the group has.

Ward has them trying to play like the 10-11 Boston Bruins and I just don't think that this roster is ever going to have success trying to play that way.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I think the one thing we all agree on most: Treliving is absolutely dead wrong. The answer is not in the room. And if he really believes it is then he is lost.

Is this from the interview over the weekend? I didn't hear it, but if Treliving said "the answer is in the room," I am pretty sure he did not mean that this is the group he wants, and he is convinced they can get it done. If he truly believed that, then he wouldn't have been working as hard as he has been to change it with the numerous attempted deals from Mark Stone, to Nazeem Kadri, Taylor Hall and Pierre-Luc Dubois. I understand this more as an observation from him about how difficult it is going to be to make any sort of meaningful changes mid-season.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Anyone else get bothered by Gio just standing behind his net with 10seconds left in the game. I get he ensured the flames a point. But that’s enough time to get to the other end and get a shot away. Try and win!

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

I think this is where some of the disconnect is happening between some of the posters here (between myself and you as well I'm guessing?).

Honest question - is there a chance this roster just isn't as good as you think it should be?

I agree with Jiri and a few others here - obviously the goaltending this season is great, I like the blueline a lot for the most part (too bad Gio is declining), but the forwards I really don't like much at all. They are pretty slow. We do not have an elite center. The 4th line is pretty bad and doesn't bring any energy. The forwards are wildly inconsistent. Look at the team's highest paid player - he can have great games, but he's slow and there's been many games this season I forgot he was even playing. That's your highest paid guy. That's not good. There's some nice pieces mixed in there, but overall I don't think it's a great/fast/consistent group at all.

I think some posters that think this is a very good/elite/contending team on paper put the vast majority of blame on the coach/systems. I get that.

And I think that some posters that like some of this team but don't see it as an elite team at all have no problem shipping the coach out but think the bigger issue is the makeup of the team, mainly the forward group.

I get both arguments. But I just don't see an elite/contending team, even on paper.

Is there a chance? Absolutely there’s a chance these guys aren’t the team that can win a Stanley Cup. I’ve never seen anyone say that replacing Ward is a guarantee of success. If you bring in a proven coach or Ward becomes a head coach elsewhere and has a bunch of success, and this team still looks like it looks now then it’s time to blow it up for sure. I just think it’s a waste to throw away this core without trying that first.

[Stanley]

I'm tired of hearing about Flames being "almost in" on a deal or "tried very hard" on a trade. Enough already just fking get it done, close the damn deal.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Stanley

I'm tired of hearing about Flames being "almost in" on a deal or "tried very hard" on a trade. Enough already just fking get it done, close the damn deal.

Yes. It is always just that easy.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Dube and Mangiapane are pretty fast but then again, I’m comparing them to other Flames.

I know the Flames have used a skating coach from time to time but I think they could really use sending some of these guys to skating school for the whole off season. Especially Tkachuk.

maybe call the guy Draisaitl used.
He was a pretty poor skater, and in his first couple of years it was commented on a lot.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Man Loubardias seems like a nice guy and all,but I can't even listen to him anymore. Flat out turn off the radio when I have to hear his take, which is basically exactly the same regardless how the team is doing.

Yeah I mean the "he's a good man schtick" whenever a coach loses their job is tiring because he got fired once. We've all been there at one time or another.
Otherwise I still enjoy him.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by theinfinitejar

Is there a chance? Absolutely there’s a chance these guys aren’t the team that can win a Stanley Cup. I’ve never seen anyone say that replacing Ward is a guarantee of success. If you bring in a proven coach or Ward becomes a head coach elsewhere and has a bunch of success, and this team still looks like it looks now then it’s time to blow it up for sure. I just think it’s a waste to throw away this core without trying that first.

The biggest thing to me, is it also helps you identify who the real problems you need to move are.

Treliving was given a mulligan this offseason and he failed to use it.

To me the way he should have proceeded was clear.

1) Bring in a proven, elite coach (Boudreau)

2) Let this core play out the 20-21 season since it's likely hard to make substantial changes mid-pandemic (kind of proven since no real trades happened this offseason)

3) Depending on how the season goes assess who needs to stay or who should go with Boudreau as the long term coach for this team

Honestly I still don't think we know at this point if the problem is coaching, or if its Monahan, or Gaudreau, or Gio, or Tkachuk, or a combination of multiple things. But bringing in a proven coach with a history of getting the most out of his teams (in the regular season at least) would have provided more clarity into what changes the team really needed to make to this roster.

Especially with the goaltender position solidified.

[Igottago]

The players aren't/haven't been good enough and should shoulder plenty of blame. But have any of the coaching hires looked like a serious attempt to get to the next level and contend for a Stanley Cup? No. Trying to develop coaches or finding a diamond in the rough isn't a good strategy for a team entering the peak part of its rebuild. So regardless of the players and roster not being good enough, the entire philosophy behind the coaches hires has been wrong, at least in my eyes. To me the fact that guys like Gaudreau, Monahan and Gio can't get it done in the playoffs doesn't absolve Treliving of not finding a coach that can actually help them overcome that.