High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by 81MC

Don’t think I can say this without some sort of ‘victim blaming’ or whatever the hell, but...

Relationships require two people. At what point does it go from ‘dump this loser’ to PTSD inducing abuse? I don’t know, it’s not 1950 anymore, if your boyfriend or girlfriend is being mentally abusive you can walk out the door.

It is more complicated than that BUT...


There does seem to be a significant draw to men with money who are able to carry on as abusers for a lot longer than poor dudes.

Almost as if there's a draw to their partners that makes the abuse "worth it". Like they get addicted to the lifestyle or something.

That being said, these men also tend to use their money and their power to limit the options of the abused to make it difficult to leave. It isn't as simple as "just walk away".

[Wormius]

I guess it depends on what the person knows as normalcy. When you're young and missing some life experiences, you don't necessarily know what are part of life's normal series of trials and tribulations and what are people manipulating you.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

How do you know she didn't seek him out?

Doesn't matter he is the mature adult she is not.

Also, the judgement of other people's lives based on arbitrary age numbers is sickening.

Fair point but my biases are my biases. Maybe such situations are true love but most likely not.

That being said, I'm shocked that the man who has been a drug addict for 25 years, made his fame by pretending to be a satan worshipping psychopath was not a great guy behind the scenes. Shocked I tells ya.

Your judgments are sickening.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yeah dude, that's easy to say, but harder to do. There are spouses that stay in non-abusive relationships/marriages just out of fear of change.

Throw in some physical or mental abuse and it changes everything.

I don't think you are being flippant with your comment so don't get me wrong, it just isn't as easy a leaving.

Exactly. What some apparently fail to understand is when you're in a bad relationship it is not ALL bad. There is often many good things you don't want to let go. And like you said the fear of change, also the fear of feeling like you are a failure because you couldn't make the relationship work.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by troutman

Yup - David Bowie, Jimmy Page. They raped children. No one wants to think about it.

I try to tell myself it was a different era and that it was more acceptable at the time, but it keeps getting harder to listen to Bowie and Zeppelin. Then I start wondering if/how much worse that is than guys like John Lennon or Lindsey Graham beating their women, then I wonder how many other guys have skeletons in their closet like that that haven't seen the light of day. How many guys are really able to run the gauntlet of easy access to women, money and fame without coming out a complete piece of #### on the other end? How do you still respect women after going on a world wide tour where scores of women are fighting for the opportunity to degrade themselves in front of you? Daron Malakian (System of a Down) joked about how women were so eager to do whatever the band wanted that they eventually ran out of ideas and got bored with it, where do you go once you've become bored with a thing like that?

It's pretty much impossible to enjoy pop culture without being able to forgive the fact that a large portion of the people involved have done horrific things.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by 81MC

Don’t think I can say this without some sort of ‘victim blaming’ or whatever the hell, but...

Relationships require two people. At what point does it go from ‘dump this loser’ to PTSD inducing abuse? I don’t know, it’s not 1950 anymore, if your boyfriend or girlfriend is being mentally abusive you can walk out the door.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yeah dude, that's easy to say, but harder to do. There are spouses that stay in non-abusive relationships/marriages just out of fear of change.

Throw in some physical or mental abuse and it changes everything.

I don't think you are being flippant with your comment so don't get me wrong, it just isn't as easy a leaving.

Agree with the above, and I'll add that it's totally understandable why someone with no direct experience of such things would wonder why a partner in an abusive relationship wouldn't just leave. I certainly struggled with that understanding myself.



Over the years I've spent working in law though, it's something you see time and again. There are ties that bind people to these partnerships - finances, housing, children - that may keep them where they are. Add to that fear - both of the unknown and of their partners' reactions when they do leave - and a perceived lack of viable alternatives, which makes things even more difficult.


Finally, what I've discovered is that a lot of the people who end up tethered to these relationships are just nice. They see only the best in people, always overlooking flaws, relying on hope/belief that things will improve or that their partner's intentions are actually good, even if their actions suggest otherwise. They're much quicker to look for what they themselves have done wrong, than to cast blame on others.



This is one of the great tragedies of these abusive situations: a lot of the victims are just hapless, kind, loyal optimists who give people the benefit of the doubt. Again and again. To a fault.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by zamler

Everyone deserves the presumption of innocence. However, even if Brian Warner didn't do anything illegal the fact at that age he was seeking out an 18 year old automatically makes me think he is a creep.

I'm more inclined to go with "there's (at least) four women who are all saying the same things about him, so it's probably true".

And talking about is good because it protects other women.

[SportsJunky]

"Lindsey Graham"
Buckingham?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Matata

I try to tell myself it was a different era and that it was more acceptable at the time, but it keeps getting harder to listen to Bowie and Zeppelin. Then I start wondering if/how much worse that is than guys like John Lennon or Lindsey Graham beating their women, then I wonder how many other guys have skeletons in their closet like that that haven't seen the light of day. How many guys are really able to run the gauntlet of easy access to women, money and fame without coming out a complete piece of #### on the other end? How do you still respect women after going on a world wide tour where scores of women are fighting for the opportunity to degrade themselves in front of you? Daron Malakian (System of a Down) joked about how women were so eager to do whatever the band wanted that they eventually ran out of ideas and got bored with it, where do you go once you've become bored with a thing like that?

It's pretty much impossible to enjoy pop culture without being able to forgive the fact that a large portion of the people involved have done horrific things.

You absolutely have to separate the art from the artist, in almost all cases.

I enjoy Bowie, Zeppelin, films that Woody Allen, Harvey Weinstein, and Kevin Spacey have been involved in. Not to mention the hundreds of films, albums, songs, pieces of art, and many other things abusers, criminals, etc have been involved in or produced.

I understand why some people can't, I don't think any less of them for it, but I enjoy pieces of art for what they are, not who made them. I don't think you have to forgive anyone for what they did, but good things are good things, regardless of anything else, just as bad things are bad things. I think it's important to be able to talk about them together, but with the understanding that they still exist on separate planes.

Do we have to forgive Phil Spector for murdering someone to enjoy the Beatles "Long and winding road"? Or enjoy the countless artists who were inspired by his wall of sound, for example?

I hope not. I don't. But that'd be a shame.

[flamesfever]

nm

[Harry Lime]

I read the Marilyn Manson article. All of the women involved are supermodel level of beauty, professionals in their fields. Even Evan Rachael Wood was well established before they met.

Marilyn Manson looks like an old shoe. He is a medium level musician and celebrity, and it's just amazing how much attention he got in the first place. To an 18 year old, I would appear old as dirt, but the second I pick up a guitar...

Bowie, Bonham and Page are untouchable for anything less than murder. There is a ring of truth to women protecting Chris Brown, when any man would beat the #### out him.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I read the Marilyn Manson article. All of the women involved are supermodel level of beauty, professionals in their fields. Even Evan Rachael Wood was well established before they met.

Marilyn Manson looks like an old shoe. He is a medium level musician and celebrity, and it's just amazing how much attention he got in the first place. To an 18 year old, I would appear old as dirt, but the second I pick up a guitar...

Bowie, Bonham and Page are untouchable for anything less than murder. There is a ring of truth to women protecting Chris Brown, when any man would beat the #### out him.

Marilyn Manson is super duper famous, easily among the best known and most recognized musicians in the world, and has been that for a very long time. He's got multiple platinum albums, most of his albums have sold at least gold and been top 10 in the charts when those still mattered, he was a stadium-level live artist, and he's been very influential to other artists over the years. Rock stars don't get much bigger than him.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I read the Marilyn Manson article. All of the women involved are supermodel level of beauty, professionals in their fields. Even Evan Rachael Wood was well established before they met.

Marilyn Manson looks like an old shoe. He is a medium level musician and celebrity, and it's just amazing how much attention he got in the first place. To an 18 year old, I would appear old as dirt, but the second I pick up a guitar...

Bowie, Bonham and Page are untouchable for anything less than murder. There is a ring of truth to women protecting Chris Brown, when any man would beat the #### out him.

Mid-late 90s Manson was one of the biggest rock stars in the world.

Now he's medium level celebrity. Back when he dated the Rose McGowan and ERW? He was a superstar and them being seen with him on the red carpet instantly made them celebrities and upped their status in hollywood by a massive amount.


I'm not saying he is innocent but I would bet many beautiful women used him to gain status and help their careers. Dating him meant instant fame and tabloid celebrity. They also ignored his crippling drug addiction and insane public persona. It isn't like they thought they were dating Tom Hanks.

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Itse

I'm more inclined to go with "there's (at least) four women who are all saying the same things about him, so it's probably true".

And talking about is good because it protects other women.

But what exactly are they saying he did? Lots of talk about the effects it had on them (PTSD PTSD PTSD PTSD) and terms like ‘horrific abuse’ but from
the article the allegations sound really ‘bad relationship, move on’ to me.

[troutman]

This sounds much worse than a "bad relationship."

“My experience with domestic violence was this: Toxic mental, physical and sexual abuse which started slow but escalated over time, including threats against my life, severe gaslighting and brainwashing, waking up to the man that claimed to love me raping what he believed to be my unconscious body,” she told the subcommittee, though she did not name a perpetrator at the time.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by 81MC

But what exactly are they saying he did? Lots of talk about the effects it had on them (PTSD PTSD PTSD PTSD) and terms like ‘horrific abuse’ but from
the article the allegations sound really ‘bad relationship, move on’ to me.

Part of it is redefining our definitions of abuse, which is good. Part of it is ignoring all the selfish things these women did, which is bad.

Does the latter make the former inconsequential? No but it does somewhat change the context IMO.

I imagine in another 10 or 20 years time there'll be another reckoning and we'll start to look back on the nature of these relationships much, much differently. Hopefully it'll involve analyzing the different types of abuse suffered by both parties at the hands of their lovers and us as a society finding healthier ways to establish relationships going forward.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by 81MC

But what exactly are they saying he did? Lots of talk about the effects it had on them (PTSD PTSD PTSD PTSD) and terms like ‘horrific abuse’ but from
the article the allegations sound really ‘bad relationship, move on’ to me.

Do you still think this is "bad relationship move on" territory?

It's a bad look on you dude

Originally Posted by troutman

This sounds much worse than a "bad relationship."

[afc wimbledon]

the problem is there is a whole grey area between bad relationship and abusive, a middle aged guy hitting on 19 year olds, be they boys or girls, is a ######bag that I wouldnt choose to have anything to do with but at the same time a 19 year old is an adult and has had a choice as to whether they got involved, I would also say if you are 19 and hanging with a 40 year old you know he/she's a ###### but he or she is a ###### with money, a cool car, good drugs or does things in the sac 19 year old girls wont and that's why you're with them

[81MC]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Do you still think this is "bad relationship move on" territory?

It's a bad look on you dude

Why is it a bad look?
I asked what the actual accusation was, and in the four stories there’s only 1 specific example which is exceptionally vague. I don’t know if I’d consider myself the victim of sexual assault when my partner wakes me up with a sexual act, but clearly that’s not exactly what she experienced.

In any case, I’m not defending the guy; I’m just trying to understand. PTSD, long term mental anguish, nightmares... that’s some pretty heavy #### for several women to go through in seemingly short, childless relationships.

Again, I’m in no position to say what isn’t sexual assault. But when I see ‘rape’ and ‘gaslighting’ used in the same vein I can’t help but question.

Guess I’m a terrible person?

[81MC]

Okay, reading this back, I get it. I look like a ####ing moron. Maybe I’ve known too many people in relationships that I could point at and say ‘oh, there’s an act of abuse. There’s another! ‘ and on and on. But I would usually call those bad relationships and #######s.

Now if those same people came to me and said rape and physical abuse and threatened my life that crosses the line into criminal.