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View Poll Results: What role do humans play in contributing to climate change?
Humans are the primary contributor to climate change 392 62.92%
Humans contribute to climate change, but not the main cause 163 26.16%
Not sure 37 5.94%
Climate change is a hoax 31 4.98%
Voters: 623. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-05-2019, 01:47 PM   #1361
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Why?

To me it shows that technology has made billions of lives better, fueled by the very stuff that is also a threat to the future of the planet. To what extent is what we are debating, and trying to find viable replacements.
Because, as you said, technology (science) is primarily responsible for making lives better and making it so we don’t all die from a drought, for instance. And now science is in a majority agreement that climate change is happening (along with warning us if the consequences and tirelessly working on solutions) and your average idiot is going “hur dur I dunno about the ‘science’ Gord!”

The graph literally shows us why it’s good to listen to science, coming from a guy who says we should question the science.
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Old 10-05-2019, 01:51 PM   #1362
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I’m just not sure people who say “look how great fossil fuels are, look how much they’ve done for us, look how much we rely on them” are ready to engage in critical thought. There’s a few posters on this board that do it and act like they’re spreading revelatory truth.

No #### a lot of our advancements have come from things like petroleum. Nobody is debating that. But now there is a cost to that advancement that we have to pay, so let’s put the thinking caps on and give a little effort instead of poo pooing science or criticising teenagers. It’s lazy and pathetic.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:01 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
I’m just not sure people who say “look how great fossil fuels are, look how much they’ve done for us, look how much we rely on them” are ready to engage in critical thought. There’s a few posters on this board that do it and act like they’re spreading revelatory truth.

No #### a lot of our advancements have come from things like petroleum. Nobody is debating that. But now there is a cost to that advancement that we have to pay, so let’s put the thinking caps on and give a little effort instead of poo pooing science or criticising teenagers. It’s lazy and pathetic.
It's also a great way of getting people you're trying to convince to tune out because it just makes you sound like a shill for the fossil fuel industry.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:02 PM   #1364
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The graph literally shows us why it’s good to listen to science, coming from a guy who says we should question the science.
We can "listen to science" and also question it at the same time. And don't lose your #### just because someone does have questions.
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Old 10-05-2019, 02:25 PM   #1365
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I’m just not sure people who say “look how great fossil fuels are, look how much they’ve done for us, look how much we rely on them” are ready to engage in critical thought. There’s a few posters on this board that do it and act like they’re spreading revelatory truth.

No #### a lot of our advancements have come from things like petroleum. Nobody is debating that. But now there is a cost to that advancement that we have to pay, so let’s put the thinking caps on and give a little effort instead of poo pooing science or criticising teenagers. It’s lazy and pathetic.
Yes, but unfortunately 'listen to the science' has become a bit of a close-minded refrain as well. There is no debate (from rational people) that there is climate change. But that doesn't mean that there isn't still debate needed on exactly what that means going forward, and what the best solutions are.

The other issue I have is that too many people use 'science' as an absolute, as a conversation ender. The science of what is happening now is one thing (largely, if not entirely, indisputable), but assuming that the projections of what will happen going forward (especially decades out), are also indisputable, is a completely different thing. Projections, by definition, include assumptions, and therefore no matter how exactingly the science is applied, the resulting projections are not, to coin a phrase, an exact science.

Those who poo poo (to use your term) everyone who questions anything is also really tiring to listen to. (Not directing this at you, it is a general statement)

spoiler alert: stating this does not make me a climate denier
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Old 10-05-2019, 04:10 PM   #1366
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Totally agree. My point is more that there is a discussion and debate to be had, but things like graphs showing historical deaths due to natural disasters, bringing up the obvious fact of how much we rely on petroleum, childish nitpicking over the environmental purity of teenage activists, are all ignorant tripe. There’s nothing there that adds to the conversation of how we move forward, it’s all designed to delay that conversation.

The facts are out. Something needs to be done. Let’s debate about what “something” is instead of giving brain space to people who vaguely pretend to care about a solution and just nitpick at everything and say “oh did you know protest marches use energy hur hur hur.”

It’s just remarkably see through.
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Old 10-05-2019, 05:26 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by zamler View Post
Why?

To me it shows that technology has made billions of lives better, fueled by the very stuff that is also a threat to the future of the planet. To what extent is what we are debating, and trying to find viable replacements.
The vast majority of the technology that has made billions of lives better are powered by electricity, NOT fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are one of the products we use to generate electricity, but they are not responsible for the very things that make those lives better.

The challenge we have as a species, and apex intelligence who can damage our environment through our action, is to find the next fuel source that does not pollute the environment and put ecosystems at risk. It is out there, we just need the resolve to make it happen.
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Old 10-05-2019, 05:39 PM   #1368
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The vast majority of the technology that has made billions of lives better are powered by electricity, NOT fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are one of the products we use to generate electricity, but they are not responsible for the very things that make those lives better.

The challenge we have as a species, and apex intelligence who can damage our environment through our action, is to find the next fuel source that does not pollute the environment and put ecosystems at risk. It is out there, we just need the resolve to make it happen.
That's a baffling statement. Cheap energy AND petroleum products are responsible for making billions of lives better. Electricity hasn't been power for vehicles, ships, trains and airplanes, petroleum has. Electricity doesn't allow for plastics that, amoung other things, have made modern medicine possible. Has electricity also contributed to the industrial revolution? Absolutely. But the vast majority of that has been generated by fossil fuels.



That's a la-la land statement if I've ever heard one.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:35 PM   #1369
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Fossil fuels are one of the products we use to generate electricity, but they are not responsible for the very things that make those lives better.
Almost everything we have is made from crude oil without it you'd have no phone, no car, no house you'd be huddling in a cave.

60% of a passenger tire is made from crude oil, that doesn't make your life better?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:00 PM   #1370
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That's a baffling statement. Cheap energy AND petroleum products are responsible for making billions of lives better. Electricity hasn't been power for vehicles, ships, trains and airplanes, petroleum has. Electricity doesn't allow for plastics that, amoung other things, have made modern medicine possible. Has electricity also contributed to the industrial revolution? Absolutely. But the vast majority of that has been generated by fossil fuels.



That's a la-la land statement if I've ever heard one.
No it's not. Its understanding history and an unwillingness to swallow what comes from the fossil fuel industry and the think tank community that creates their propaganda.

The world is what it is because of the industrial revolutions. Yes, multiple revolutions. The first (1765) was when mechanized systems and the steam engine were discovered and used to expand industrialization. At first, the steam engine was driven by the use of wood, but later coal would be used as it burned hotter and longer. The second revolution was the energy revolution (1870). Electricity, then oil and gas would, power this revolution. Many of the developments of this period were driven by electricity. Tesla, Edison, Marconi, Bell, etc. would not have made their discoveries without electricity. Imagine a world without the light bulb, radio, the telephone, radar, refrigeration, computers, etc, all a result of the discovery of electricity. The next revolution is the nuclear and technology revolution (1969). Nuclear power should be a game changer, but there is a powerful lobby that prevents this from happening. Technology in the shape of the transistor and micro-processor have created the greatest change and betterment of people's lives on this planet, and all of it runs on electricity.

The first industrial revolution used water and steam to mechanize production, the second used electric energy to create mass production and the third used electronics and information technology to automate production. Today a fourth industrial revolution is underway which builds upon the third revolution and the digital revolution that has been taking place since the middle of the last century.

Plastics are not just based on petroleum products. The first plastic was demonstrated in 1862 by Alexander Parkes and was made from organic cellulose. Celluloid was used in many products that many people mistook for plastic including billiard balls. Then came formaldehyde resins, more commonly known as bakelite. This was originally an all organic product, but later shifted to a cheaper production method using a waste product from coal mining. This made it the first plastic to use a fossil fuel product, but it could have been made organically, albeit more expensive. Bakelite is a high quality product and many of the products made with this material still look brand new. Petrochemical plastic for consumer products didn't really become a reality until after WWII. Many of the things we rely upon today could be created with organic plastics. We only choose to do things out of convenience and because we are told it is easier.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:03 PM   #1371
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Almost everything we have is made from crude oil without it you'd have no phone, no car, no house you'd be huddling in a cave.

60% of a passenger tire is made from crude oil, that doesn't make your life better?
You think human beings emerged from caves in the 1800s? Jesus.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:06 PM   #1372
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You think human beings emerged from caves in the 1800s? Jesus.
You think 500 years ago there were 7.5 billion people? Think we can power the world and support 7+ billion with trees and whale oil? You know what, you're an idiot.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:12 PM   #1373
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No it's not. Its understanding history and an unwillingness to swallow what comes from the fossil fuel industry and the think tank community that creates their propaganda.

The world is what it is because of the industrial revolutions. Yes, multiple revolutions. The first (1765) was when mechanized systems and the steam engine were discovered and used to expand industrialization. At first, the steam engine was driven by the use of wood, but later coal would be used as it burned hotter and longer. The second revolution was the energy revolution (1870). Electricity, then oil and gas would, power this revolution. Many of the developments of this period were driven by electricity. Tesla, Edison, Marconi, Bell, etc. would not have made their discoveries without electricity. Imagine a world without the light bulb, radio, the telephone, radar, refrigeration, computers, etc, all a result of the discovery of electricity. The next revolution is the nuclear and technology revolution (1969). Nuclear power should be a game changer, but there is a powerful lobby that prevents this from happening. Technology in the shape of the transistor and micro-processor have created the greatest change and betterment of people's lives on this planet, and all of it runs on electricity.

The first industrial revolution used water and steam to mechanize production, the second used electric energy to create mass production and the third used electronics and information technology to automate production. Today a fourth industrial revolution is underway which builds upon the third revolution and the digital revolution that has been taking place since the middle of the last century.

Plastics are not just based on petroleum products. The first plastic was demonstrated in 1862 by Alexander Parkes and was made from organic cellulose. Celluloid was used in many products that many people mistook for plastic including billiard balls. Then came formaldehyde resins, more commonly known as bakelite. This was originally an all organic product, but later shifted to a cheaper production method using a waste product from coal mining. This made it the first plastic to use a fossil fuel product, but it could have been made organically, albeit more expensive. Bakelite is a high quality product and many of the products made with this material still look brand new. Petrochemical plastic for consumer products didn't really become a reality until after WWII. Many of the things we rely upon today could be created with organic plastics. We only choose to do things out of convenience and because we are told it is easier.
Really? What insulates wires? Certainly not bakelite. We couldn't have had an electronic revolution without petroleum based insulated wires. But keep ignoring history.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:16 PM   #1374
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Really? What insulates wires? Certainly not bakelite. We couldn't have had an electronic revolution without petroleum based insulated wires. But keep ignoring history.
Wow. You do know that there were insulated wires long before plastic insulation came along?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:17 PM   #1375
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You think 500 years ago there were 7.5 billion people? Think we can power the world and support 7+ billion with trees and whale oil? You know what, you're an idiot.
Lol where did I say that? You suggested that without crude oil we wouldn’t have houses and would still live in caves. Tell me genius, how were houses commonly built before the 1800s when the oil boom started? Or were they not, was it all just fancy Victorian Caves?

I’ll wait.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:29 PM   #1376
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Lol where did I say that? You suggested that without crude oil we wouldn’t have houses and would still live in caves.
I didn't say that.
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Tell me genius, how were houses commonly built before the 1800s when the oil boom started? Or were they not, was it all just fancy Victorian Caves?

I’ll wait.
You think we can build all our homes, transport infrastructure, modern skyscrapers, roads, ports and everything else we have using wood, stone and manual labour? You know WHY the populate remained so low for centuries? Think hard.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:43 PM   #1377
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I didn't say that.
You sure did.

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Almost everything we have is made from crude oil without it you'd have no phone, no car, no house you'd be huddling in a cave.
So, please: Tell me how, without crude oil, we’d have no houses and be living in caves. I’m excited to hear how you explain all the building and homes built before the oil boom.
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:53 PM   #1378
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So, please: Tell me how, without crude oil, we’d have no houses and be living in caves. I’m excited to hear how you explain all the building and homes built before the oil boom.
They were built slowly, population was much lower. It took 200,000 years for us to reach 1 billion, 200 years to get to 7.5 billion. Guess why?
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:54 PM   #1379
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Just a fun tidbit here - wood / timber frame structures, including those now for skyscrapers and traditionally concrete buildings, is gaining serious momentum in the design world these days. Wood is becoming a legit, cost-effective option for an increasing amount of building typologies. Heck, we're even leading the way with the new UNBC Wood Innovation and Design Centre in Prince George.

https://www.unbc.ca/engineering-grad...-design-centre
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:13 PM   #1380
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They were built slowly, population was much lower. It took 200,000 years for us to reach 1 billion, 200 years to get to 7.5 billion. Guess why?
So, there were houses? Glad you’ve come around. I figured.

As for your leading question on the role petroleum has played, please see my previous post, as I’ve never even questioned the positive role of petroleum, even calling it “obvious,” and which also includes my feelings on the exact thing you’re doing:

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My point is more that there is a discussion and debate to be had, but things like ... bringing up the obvious fact of how much we rely on petroleum (is) ignorant tripe. There’s nothing there that adds to the conversation of how we move forward, it’s all designed to delay that conversation.
It’s all pretty funny from a guy who said this:

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You know what, you're an idiot.
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