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View Poll Results: What role do humans play in contributing to climate change?
Humans are the primary contributor to climate change 392 62.92%
Humans contribute to climate change, but not the main cause 163 26.16%
Not sure 37 5.94%
Climate change is a hoax 31 4.98%
Voters: 623. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-27-2019, 08:18 PM   #1221
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People have to decide how important is fighting climate change really is? Is is important enough to inconvenience ourselves?
People have overwhelmingly decided already. Greta Thunberg made the same decision when she made her transatlantic trip in about the most comfortable yacht you can find, complete with backup diesel generator. No craft made from recycled materials using sustainable energy here, but when she docked she was sure to chide us all on driving our cars to work, buying burgers and ruining the planet.

You can argue about "raising awareness" but the challenge of maintaining our lifestyles while using clean energy is crystal clear at this point. The actual issue is almost no one is willing to give up their lifestyle, a lifestyle that is carbon energy fueled.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:26 PM   #1222
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I think the issue here really is materialistic and ease of living (convenience).

Every invention or cause in our lifetime has improved our lives, made is faster and easier. Inventions from the radio to the tv to the computer to the internet. From the tv, to cable, to HD to 4K. From tailor clothes, to buying it at a store, to buying it online. etc.. etc..

You are paying for perks. A computer was $5000 in the 70s, now it's $300.

But on the issue of fighting climate change, you're not taking convenience away.

Buy a Tesla for $100,000 but we don't have convenient charging stations.
Or don't drive at all, walk, bike or take transit which takes a little longer.
It may even mean your kid has to walk to school.


People have to decide how important fighting climate change really is? Is is important enough to inconvenience ourselves?
You would have to define convenience vs necessity...
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:51 PM   #1223
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People have overwhelmingly decided already. Greta Thunberg made the same decision when she made her transatlantic trip in about the most comfortable yacht you can find, complete with backup diesel generator. No craft made from recycled materials using sustainable energy here, but when she docked she was sure to chide us all on driving our cars to work, buying burgers and ruining the planet.

You can argue about "raising awareness" but the challenge of maintaining our lifestyles while using clean energy is crystal clear at this point. The actual issue is almost no one is willing to give up their lifestyle, a lifestyle that is carbon energy fueled.
I agree with what you're saying, but the part I bolded... Green text?

My understanding was that she hitched a ride on a commercial shipping vessel, no? The green part of the voyage being that she's essentially carpooling...
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:55 PM   #1224
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Capitalism works. If people want change, their buying power could create massive disruption to existing industries that rely on carbon emitting production or supply chain. The problem is that's almost everything, so we won't do it.
So it's better to paint a sign and walk around denouncing capitalism and feeling like a champion for a day but then get back to regular life and act like other people, politicians, or "the system" is the problem. The system is giving people what they want/need.
The best way to create systemic change is to actually make the change instead of pointing fingers. Work on small but complex problems and find solutions to them, quite possibly by going to school and learning complicated disciplines, starting a business, or working for a company in a field that is creating an alternative product/service that is better for the environment and just as convenient. Once enough of these solutions gain market traction, the overall problem starts getting solved. That is the only solution to this problem. Kids should be more motivated to be the next Elon Musk than the generic protestor on the street.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:03 PM   #1225
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I agree with what you're saying, but the part I bolded... Green text?

My understanding was that she hitched a ride on a commercial shipping vessel, no? The green part of the voyage being that she's essentially carpooling...
From what I've read she sailed in a Malizia II I don't think that's a commercial vessel. As for her "boat pooling" do you think everyone should travel like her to reduce our carbon footprint? I'm thinking a commercial airliner is a fair bit more efficient when it has 200 people on board.

Now she's going to be driving to Montreal in a 7,275 pound electric Humvee owned by Schwarzenegger. It's about as efficient as a Toyota Prius so I guess it's not terrible a Tesla Model 3 would be much better but maybe that's not the celebrity and corporate tie in her team was looking for.

edit - here's what she sailed in, the carbon footprint to manufacture this thing is enormous due to the lightweight carbon fiber among other things.


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Old 09-27-2019, 09:08 PM   #1226
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I agree with what you're saying, but the part I bolded... Green text?

My understanding was that she hitched a ride on a commercial shipping vessel, no? The green part of the voyage being that she's essentially carpooling...
To make zamler’s comment seem downright, as he put it, “stupid,” she caught a ride on a carbon-free sailing boat powered by wind and solar. Yeah, it had a backup generator. But it generated all of its own energy for the trip, and it took her two weeks to cross the ocean.

She didn’t fly, which would’ve taken hours. She didn’t take an ocean liner, which would’ve taken days. But according to zamler, two weeks on a zero emissions sailboat? Not sacrificing enough! So convenient!

It’s hard to take these types of meaningless criticisms, suggesting that crossing the Atlantic by sailboat is somehow not forgoing any convenience, from the types of people that probably complain when the Skip the Dishes driver is a little slow with their McDonalds.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:17 PM   #1227
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To make zamler’s comment seem downright, as he put it, “stupid,” she caught a ride on a carbon-free sailing boat powered by wind and solar. Yeah, it had a backup generator. But it generated all of its own energy for the trip, and it took her two weeks to cross the ocean.

She didn’t fly, which would’ve taken hours. She didn’t take an ocean liner, which would’ve taken days. But according to zamler, two weeks on a zero emissions sailboat? Not sacrificing enough! So convenient!

It’s hard to take these types of meaningless criticisms, suggesting that crossing the Atlantic by sailboat is somehow not forgoing any convenience, from the types of people that probably complain when the Skip the Dishes driver is a little slow with their McDonalds.
I think the point is that not everyone can or practically can just launch across the ocean with a crew on a super lightweight carbon free yacht paid for by rich celebrities.

I know you and others keep saying and pretending that the argument that climate alarmists are massive hypocrites is not a good one, but nobody is yet to properly explain why.

When somebody is telling somebody else how to live their life, but is unwilling to make the changes in their own life, that is fundamentally the problem. Now where you’re going to go is that the climate alarmism is actually a bell to awaken people to researching and fixing the future, to which I’d say fantastic. I agree. Everybody agrees. Literally nobody I don’t think anywhere is advocating for not doing R&D into new technologies. Thus I fail to see the point in climate “justice” marches embracing carbon intensive hypocrisy to yell at others when things are already in motion as best they can? I am at a loss to see what they are trying to achieve. If only they truly considered their own footprint.

It’s not like this is a brand new problem that has snuck up on everybody. It’s that economics drive behaviour and the economics aren’t there right now. That doesn’t make everybody but 16 year olds bad people.

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Old 09-27-2019, 09:23 PM   #1228
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She didn't "catch a ride" lol. People had to fly to her destination to bring the craft back. The thing weighs over 7 tons most of that carbon fiber which is nearly impossible to recycle. You can make an argument that this was an awareness campaign but to argue it's a green trip is ridiculous.

It's not a zero emissions sail boat unless you have no understanding of the entire energy lifecyle that goes into various modes of transport. If you think this vessel is zero emissions then you think solar panels are zero emissions. Even a Tesla Model 3 charged by hydro power still takes 4-6 years to make back its carbon footprint used to manufacture.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:26 PM   #1229
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Thus I fail to see embracing carbon intensive hypocrisy to yell at others when things are already in motion as best they can?.
Well, again, her journey was not carbon intensive. She’s literally practicing the types of things she’s preaching given the resources available to her.

That said, and I agree with a lot of what you said, but you uncovered the nugget: “as best they can.”

I don’t believe that to be true. I don’t think people like Azure who are touting how we need to get on the nuclear path believe it to be true. Greta doesn’t believe that to be true. And I would challenge you to be honest and say there isn’t one thing we could be doing better or faster. Even one?

I hear an awful lot of “this doesn’t matter, that doesn’t matter, why do ____ when someone else doesn’t?” etc. You really think that’s a sign of “as best they can”?
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:32 PM   #1230
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She should have floated across on a raft made of fallen timber lashed together with reeds and a sail made of old corn husks.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:34 PM   #1231
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She didn't "catch a ride" lol. People had to fly to her destination to bring the craft back. The thing weighs over 7 tons most of that carbon fiber which is nearly impossible to recycle. You can make an argument that this was an awareness campaign but to argue it's a green trip is ridiculous.

It's not a zero emissions sail boat unless you have no understanding of the entire energy lifecyle that goes into various modes of transport. If you think this vessel is zero emissions then you think solar panels are zero emissions. Even a Tesla Model 3 charged by hydro power still takes 4-6 years to make back its carbon footprint used to manufacture.
Did she manufacture it for this trip? Like Jesus, everybody knows it uses energy to create things, thanks Bill Nye. But given that yachts, planes, ocean liners, sail boats, rocket ships, hover craft, and literally every thing that could cross an ocean required energy to create, choosing the one of what was already built that offers zero emissions for the trip, seems to make sense. And she sacrificed convenience to ensure HER TRIP was zero emissions.

I swear if she swam you’d say her bathing suit isn’t carbon neutral lol
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:36 PM   #1232
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It’s not a bad thing at all to have people starting the conversation about how we live our lives and the impacts we have on the planet. You’re right. And we should all question ourselves about what more we can do.

Where it falls apart for me- well, I think you know where it all falls apart for me.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:37 PM   #1233
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She should have floated across on a raft made of fallen timber lashed together with reeds and a sail made of old corn husks.
I agree, it would have been a statement at least. It would have been honest.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:37 PM   #1234
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Did she manufacture it for this trip? Like Jesus, everybody knows it uses energy to create things, thanks Bill Nye. But given that yachts, planes, ocean liners, sail boats, rocket ships, hover craft, and literally every thing that could cross an ocean required energy to create, choosing the one of what was already built that offers zero emissions for the trip, seems to make sense. And she sacrificed convenience to ensure HER TRIP was zero emissions.

I swear if she swam you’d say her bathing suit isn’t carbon neutral lol
No the trip was not emissions free, in totality it was extremely polluting compared to almost any other mode of travel. Period. I don't care if the yacht was already manufactured, you going to let me use that argument for a private aircraft? Or Bugatti?
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:52 PM   #1235
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Can someone explain to me exactly how a teenage girl gets across an ocean does anything to change the validity of her message? Because I don't care if she went on a boat made out of white rhino skulls.

It's almost as if some of you don't have any cards left to play except calling out hypocrisy.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:00 PM   #1236
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It's much worse than hypocrisy. Her trip and the social media reactions shows how utterly disconnected most people are from reality when they think a PR stunt is going to make any difference. The challenge of climate change and finding ways to produce clean energy and products on a mass scale are so incredibly monumental and complex it's nearly impossible to fathom. The foundation of modern civilization is the very thing being blamed on climate change, can anyone think of a worse problem?

A good first step would to be acknowledge that we are all to blame instead of pointing fingers and demanding political leaders conjure up a magic solution.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:07 PM   #1237
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It's much worse than hypocrisy. Her trip and the social media reactions shows how utterly disconnected most people are from reality when they think a PR stunt is going to make any difference. The challenge of climate change and finding ways to produce clean energy and products on a mass scale are so incredibly monumental and complex it's nearly impossible to fathom. The foundation of modern civilization is the very thing being blamed on climate change, can anyone think of a worse problem?

A good first step would to be acknowledge that we are all to blame instead of pointing fingers and demanding political leaders conjure up a magic solution.
Some are more to blame than others. Should I reduce my carbon footprint? Sure, but I don't feel like I'm on the same level as people in power who funded climate denial propaganda or actively opposed any legislation that would address the problem. I'm a cog and they're the big-ass gear.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:08 PM   #1238
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Can someone explain to me exactly how a teenage girl gets across an ocean does anything to change the validity of her message? Because I don't care if she went on a boat made out of white rhino skulls.

It's almost as if some of you don't have any cards left to play except calling out hypocrisy.
And yet, like I said, they’re pretty darn good cards.

People want to tell other people how to live. That’s fine, but they aren’t willing to do what it takes. Therein lies the very obvious rub. You’re going to honestly sit there and tell me that it’s irrelevant?
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:09 PM   #1239
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Some are more to blame than others. Should I reduce my carbon footprint? Sure, but I don't feel like I'm on the same level as people in power who funded climate denial propaganda or actively opposed any legislation that would address the problem. I'm a cog and they're the big-ass gear.
Everybody feels that they aren’t the problem. It’s “other people”.
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Old 09-27-2019, 10:14 PM   #1240
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And yet, like I said, they’re pretty darn good cards.

People want to tell other people how to live. That’s fine, but they aren’t willing to do what it takes. Therein lies the very obvious rub. You’re going to honestly sit there and tell me that it’s irrelevant?
Yup. My doctor tells me to cut back on cheeseburgers but he's got a belly on him as well. Should I do as he says or tell him to #### off?

If Greta gets even 100 people to change their ways she's done way more good than harm. And if she actually gets someone who can make a big change to do something then that's immeasurably better. I don't see that happening but either way, I just think it's stupid to waste time attacking her.
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