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Old 12-04-2019, 03:15 PM   #1781
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Just a thought I'll toss out here, I wonder if there is a course that theists could take that would help them better understand how atheism evolved through religious and secular philosophy and bettertolerate atheists, LGBTQs & other religions outside of their own world view?

The reason we have "active atheism" now is because Christians are so rigid in their beliefs and assertions. (note used Christians here but you can slot any religious belief system into the topic).

Generally speaking it takes 2 to tango, and considering the religious viewpoint has held strong for over 2 millenia it is absolutely no wonder there is such a desire by a great number of people to push back against that with more than "reflection".

I think that you are conflating evangelicals with Christianity. While obviously there is some over lap in belief, their cultures are different. Evangelical communities are very insular, in some if not most cases all social interaction, including schooling happens within the confines of the congregation. These are communities where a having similar beliefs is not emphasized so much as a mechanism for survival. It is a cultural group as much, if not even more than it is a religion. Indeed, culture is an important factor within all conversations about religion in society.

Many atheists are protestants without the god. That is to say that they are culturally protestant, even if they don't believe in god. They uphold protestant beliefs such as an emphasis on conversion (something Catholics, Jews, and Muslims don't really give a #### about), an emphasis on faith being something private and personal ( ie not praying out loud), adhering to protestant holidays such as good Friday being statutory a holiday but not Easter Monday, interpreting the bible literally ect...

The point I am making is that both cultures ie Protestantoform Atheism and Evangelicalism are derived some a very similar source and function very similarly. The only difference is one ( Protestantoform Atheism) sees itself as neutral when it isn't.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:27 PM   #1782
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Just a thought I'll toss out here, I wonder if there is a course that theists could take that would help them better understand how atheism evolved through religious and secular philosophy and better tolerate atheists, LGBTQs & other religions outside of their own world view?

The reason we have "active atheism" now is because Christians are so rigid in their beliefs and assertions. (note; used Christians here but you can slot any religious belief system into the topic).

Generally speaking it takes 2 to tango, and considering the religious viewpoint has held strong for over 2 millenia it is absolutely no wonder there is such a desire by a great number of people to push back against that with more than "reflection".
All of these "courses" can simply be boiled down to "education", which I would strongly endorse to people in general. I simply focused that post towards my personal experiences.

The world is full of miserable people waiting for the other person to make the effort first.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:34 PM   #1783
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I think that you are conflating evangelicals with Christianity. While obviously there is some over lap in belief, their cultures are different. Evangelical communities are very insular, in some if not most cases all social interaction, including schooling happens within the confines of the congregation. These are communities where a having similar beliefs is not emphasized so much as a mechanism for survival. It is a cultural group as much, if not even more than it is a religion. Indeed, culture is an important factor within all conversations about religion in society.

Many atheists are protestants without the god. That is to say that they are culturally protestant, even if they don't believe in god. They uphold protestant beliefs such as an emphasis on conversion (something Catholics, Jews, and Muslims don't really give a #### about), an emphasis on faith being something private and personal ( ie not praying out loud), adhering to protestant holidays such as good Friday being statutory a holiday but not Easter Monday, interpreting the bible literally ect...

The point I am making is that both cultures ie Protestantoform Atheism and Evangelicalism are derived some a very similar source and function very similarly. The only difference is one ( Protestantoform Atheism) sees itself as neutral when it isn't.
Muslims are hugely into conversion, its the whole basis of their faith
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:46 PM   #1784
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Muslims are hugely into conversion, its the whole basis of their faith
I don't think this is true. Now I am not a Muslim, but I have close friends who are both Muslim and study Islam as their Academic pursuits, and they have explained to be that conversion is not emphasized because Islam teaches that everyone is Muslim at birth. Thus, there is not a religious duty to 'save someones soul' the same way that protestant faiths emphasize.

That said, Islam is a very diverse religion, and with the right mix of social political context (ie parts of the middle east and parts of Africa), there is an emphasis on punishing hearsay, that said, this is most often driven by socio political motivations as much as religious motivations.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:46 PM   #1785
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You are completely out to lunch. Literally nothing you said in that post was accurate.
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Muslims are hugely into conversion, its the whole basis of their faith
Also completely ridiculous to suggest that Catholics "don't really give a #### about" converting people to the faith.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:50 PM   #1786
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You are completely out to lunch. Literally nothing you said in that post was accurate.

Also completely ridiculous to suggest that Catholics "don't really give a #### about" converting people to the faith.
I will back off on the Catholics and conversion bit. It is probably more accurate to say that they are less obsessed with it then Evangelicals.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:51 PM   #1787
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Muslims are hugely into conversion, its the whole basis of their faith
It seems to me that ISIS had some pretty convincing tactics to get people to convert to their religion.
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:57 PM   #1788
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You are completely out to lunch. Literally nothing you said in that post was accurate.
If you are interesting in the connection between Protestantism, and secularism I suggest that you read.

Asad, Talal. Formations of the Secular: Christianity, Islam, Modernity. Palo Alto, CA: Stanford University Press, 2003.

or

Markus, Robert A. Christianity and the Secular. University of Notre Dame Press, 2006.
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Old 12-04-2019, 04:40 PM   #1789
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All of these "courses" can simply be boiled down to "education", which I would strongly endorse to people in general. I simply focused that post towards my personal experiences.

The world is full of miserable people waiting for the other person to make the effort first.

Understood, I had thought when I read the piece below, in your post, that you were insinuating atheists should educate themselves more. I think "most" atheists I have encountered are pretty educated about theism and the general discourse it takes to represent ourselves to most theists.

I am not so certain the same can be said in reverse.


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It's absolutely fascinating to read and witness how theology evolved through religious and secular philosophy and study. It's a grand undertaking, but I think it would give non-theists a broader acceptance and understanding of religion.
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:56 PM   #1790
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It seems to me that ISIS had some pretty convincing tactics to get people to convert to their religion.
You sound like a hillbilly.
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Old 12-04-2019, 06:07 PM   #1791
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Last edited by Cheese; 12-04-2019 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 12-04-2019, 06:08 PM   #1792
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Nm
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Old 12-04-2019, 06:53 PM   #1793
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Muslims are hugely into conversion, its the whole basis of their faith
Anecdotally, while discussing Islam with two Muslims at work, both proclaimed they were not supposed to attempt to convert non-Muslims.

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It seems to me that ISIS had some pretty convincing tactics to get people to convert to their religion.
ISIS mostly converts Muslims to terrorists, not non Muslims to Muslims then to terrorists, no?
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:23 PM   #1794
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ISIS mostly converts Muslims to terrorists, not non Muslims to Muslims then to terrorists, no?
You and I might call them terrorists, but in their eyes, they are doing Gods work.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:37 PM   #1795
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Anecdotally, while discussing Islam with two Muslims at work, both proclaimed they were not supposed to attempt to convert non-Muslims.



ISIS mostly converts Muslims to terrorists, not non Muslims to Muslims then to terrorists, no?
There is a difference between proselytizing and converting, Islam from it's inception has always made it hugely easy to become a muslim, there is no need to be baptized or restrictions on race or ancestry, it grew by hoovering up converts and it remains the fastest growing religion because of this (particularly in Africa), in the third world its emphasise on racial equality makes it very attractive to non white populations.
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:57 PM   #1796
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I don't particularly find conversion tactics to be the disconcerting part of religion. If one truly believes that their personal faith is the system to save a persons soul, it is truly a thoughtful and kind act to try to pull them into that system of belief.

The great amorality of Western religions is the belief the the foundation of moral decisions can be found in the word of god. This belief has allowed people to justify the worst behaviour imaginable. A small scale but frequent example you will hear often today. "Trump is a good person, he believes in god."
1) Trump is demonstrably a terrible person.
2) What does believing in god have to do with being a good person?
3) nobody actually thinks that Trump is a faithful adherent to any religion.

But they think citing a belief in god can justify or explain away any behaviour.

I just don't see how one could square that basic problem with a kind and just creator (even if it were possible that an actively involved creator could exist in the the universe we see). So I see their entire moral compass coming from such a deeply flawed place that the kind act of trying to save anothers soul doesn't really move the scale.
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Old 12-05-2019, 07:49 AM   #1797
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But they think citing a belief in god can justify or explain away any behaviour.

I just don't see how one could square that basic problem with a kind and just creator (even if it were possible that an actively involved creator could exist in the the universe we see). So I see their entire moral compass coming from such a deeply flawed place that the kind act of trying to save anothers soul doesn't really move the scale.
I have some theories...
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:37 AM   #1798
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I don't particularly find conversion tactics to be the disconcerting part of religion. If one truly believes that their personal faith is the system to save a persons soul, it is truly a thoughtful and kind act to try to pull them into that system of belief.

The great amorality of Western religions is the belief the the foundation of moral decisions can be found in the word of god. This belief has allowed people to justify the worst behaviour imaginable. A small scale but frequent example you will hear often today. "Trump is a good person, he believes in god."
1) Trump is demonstrably a terrible person.
2) What does believing in god have to do with being a good person?
3) nobody actually thinks that Trump is a faithful adherent to any religion.

But they think citing a belief in god can justify or explain away any behaviour.

I just don't see how one could square that basic problem with a kind and just creator (even if it were possible that an actively involved creator could exist in the the universe we see). So I see their entire moral compass coming from such a deeply flawed place that the kind act of trying to save anothers soul doesn't really move the scale.
The conversion tactics espoused by theists is the primary issue with atheists. When you actually look at this properly, it is the children who are being converted at a young age by their parents and grandparents. It doesn't matter what religion your talking about, or what region of the world, children have no choice but to follow the god of their family. Later on life, many have a difficult time leaving as the scars and fear tactics that are used create psychological issues that are hard to escape.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:22 AM   #1799
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There is a difference between proselytizing and converting, Islam from it's inception has always made it hugely easy to become a muslim, there is no need to be baptized or restrictions on race or ancestry, it grew by hoovering up converts and it remains the fastest growing religion because of this (particularly in Africa), in the third world its emphasise on racial equality makes it very attractive to non white populations.
Racial restrictions aren't a thing for any religion anymore (except for Hinduism, I suppose). Christianity has seen dramatic growth in Africa, with the Christian population on the continent expected to double by 2050 from 500 million to over 1 billion. Sub-Saharan Africa is expected to be 60% Christian by 2050.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-and-muslims/

Christianity, especially Protestantism, are regarded in sub-Saharan Africa and other regions in the developing world as the religion of the educated and prosperous.

https://www.economist.com/the-econom...veloping-world
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:40 AM   #1800
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It doesn't matter what religion your talking about, or what region of the world, children have no choice but to follow the god of their family. Later on life, many have a difficult time leaving as the scars and fear tactics that are used create psychological issues that are hard to escape.
Giving the generation-over-generation decline of religiosity in the West, people typically seem to manage the transition without psychological issues. Maybe the bitterness and resentment expressed by activist atheists comes out of their own family experiences? Because most of us manage to be irreligious without hostility and anger toward the religious.
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