Godless Apostate

[Dion]

Originally Posted by T@T

Be honest with her, she'll understand your point of view. my mother was the same way.

Don't count on it. Religious fanatics are prone to do things like that. Clearly she's been brainwashed to a point where she thinks her son is the Devil.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by T@T

"GOD" is imaginary, science and common sense proves this.

I don't have any idea why I am posting this, because it's not like it's going to matter, but seriously. Posting things like this does nothing to create positive dialogue or promote understanding between different groups of people.

By all means, think this if you want (it is factually incorrect, but whatever) ... but there is absolutely no need to post such inflammatory things on a topic that is so dear to many people. I actually fall on the more doubtful side when it comes to religion, but I'd never post something like this.

Ugh. I'm sure I just wasted my time, but whatever.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I don't have any idea why I am posting this, because it's not like it's going to matter, but seriously. Posting things like this does nothing to create positive dialogue or promote understanding between different groups of people.

By all means, think this if you want (it is factually incorrect, but whatever) ... but there is absolutely no need to post such inflammatory things on a topic that is so dear to many people. I actually fall on the more doubtful side when it comes to religion, but I'd never post something like this.

Ugh. I'm sure I just wasted my time, but whatever.

I understand your belief in your point of view, I really do, but my view is religion is the true "evil" on this planet and it needs an anti-voice.

As I've always said,don't like my athiest views and silly speaches on the subject? theres a forum button that takes care of it.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by T@T

I understand your belief in your point of view, I really do, but my view is religion is the true "evil" on this planet and it needs an anti-voice.

As I've always said,don't like my athiest views and silly speaches on the subject? theres a forum button that takes care of it.

So what you're saying is that you prefer to make inflammatory statements as opposed to discussion?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

How do i tell my mom about my views on religion without her kicking me out?

You don't. It's not fair, it's not right, but for many it's reality. Hopefully it's just a phase or she'll become more accepting over time.

But for some that's the choice they have to make; hide a part of themselves forever or lose contact with a loved one.

And what really do you gain by telling her? What's the benefit that would outweigh the negatives? About the only one I can think of is the need to be accepted for who one is by one's parents, and telling her isn't going to get that apparently, so the cost to you is the same if you tell her or don't, but the benefit to her is clearly in favour of keeping it to yourself.

My parents are quite different now than when I was 20, they're still religious but they aren't so.. fervent I guess. I used to go to churches too where they'd roll around and babble nonsense and scream and shake. Now my parents are much more open minded. So it can change over time.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

I'm 20 and i live in the SW. I'm studying at SAIT and my mom teaches there in a different field. I love my mom with all my heart, she's a great person and i don't know what i'd do with myself if something bad happened to her. But when it comes to religion, please keep me out of it and let me live my life the way i want too.

In my hot-headed youth, I would probably advise you to tell your mom how you really feel about religion even though she has threatened to kick you out. Now that I'm older (and hopefully wiser), I'd say your best course is to just continue attending church for the next year or two until you graduate, get a job, are self-sufficient, and move out to a place of your own.

Choose your battles.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Dion

So what you're saying is that you prefer to make inflammatory statements as opposed to discussion?

Not at all, As you know Dion theres is no better debate than a religious one!

But most thumpers can't take the heat so I just remind them that there is a button to make all their pain go away.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

Over the past few months something has really changed with my mom. She has always been a religious person and i live in a fairly religious family but now she has become way more religious than i have ever seen her. In my 20 years of life i've never seen her act or talk the way she has over the last few months. Going on about witchcraft, demons in our house and the fact that me not believing in god apparently means that i believe in the devil.

That's worrisome, maybe she's really worried about your soul and is starting to wonder if your doubts might be demons or some other evil force. It would not be unusual for a worried religious parent to start grasping at straws.

Last Sunday i went to church for the first time in years. It was an African church so things ran quite differently than the other christian church i went to as a kid, and i have to say that it was one of the most eye opening things i've ever seen in my life. Seeing a room full of people act like they're having a seizure while yelling out "god, god, god" over and over again made me realize that i honestly have no need for church or religion.

Yeah I can only imagine seeing that in person, its really hard once you take the veil off organized religion and you see it for what it really is difficult to see people act this way, not to mention people you care about believing in demon's.

Before i was on the fence about religion but after that and some of the stuff i heard my mom say it made me truly believe that i have no need for god. I still haven't told my mom and she told me that if i don't go to church with her than she would put me out of the house. How do i tell my mom about my views on religion without her kicking me out?

This is a tough one, sounds like she might not be very receptive but I think the best thing you can do is be honest, maybe tell her that organized religion is not for you, that you are "spiritual" and see if that appeases her. I have a feeling if you went all out and you stated you did not believe in God that she would not accept that, but maybe if you stood up to her she would become accepting of it eventually.

If your joining our team, welcome, enjoy your stay

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

How about refuse to move out? While listening to Marilyn Manson all day.

I think you mean listening To Judas priest and Queen

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Posting things like this does nothing to create positive dialogue or promote understanding between different groups of people.

By all means, think this if you want (it is factually incorrect, but whatever) .

It is factually incorrect? in brackets, like you are just sliding it in there, unnoticed? Do you really think that is promoting understanding and useful dialogue. That right there is some of the reason why people like T@T and myself have a problem with religion.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

It is factually incorrect?

Antithesis is right. T@T's claim that "science and common prove that God is imaginary" is indeed factually incorrect, and I say that as a staunch atheist. Science cannot disprove the existence of supernatural beings because they are inherently not falsifiable. Note that it doesn't necessarily follow that if something is unfalsifiable that it is therefore true, though, a mistake many creationists make. Just because science cannot disprove the existence of a supernatural god or gods doesn't mean that any exist for the exact same reasons that science cannot disprove the existence of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn or Russell's teapot.

In the absence of compelling evidence, I firmly believe the default position should be one of of skepticism and non-belief (hence why I'm an atheist), and that the burden of proof belongs to believers who make the claim that god(s) exists, not to those who doubt them. But Antithesis is still correct: science has not disproved god, nor can it.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

It is factually incorrect? in brackets, like you are just sliding it in there, unnoticed? Do you really think that is promoting understanding and useful dialogue. That right there is some of the reason why people like T@T and myself have a problem with religion.

Well to be fair, he's mostly right. T&T said God is imaginary and and that Science has proven that, which is as mystical of a belief as believing in god himself. It is factually incorrect to say that Science has disproven God.

Science has not proven the existence of God, but a lack of evidence toward existence of something is not the same as evidence towards it's inability to exist.

So to say God is imaginary, well, that is a belief system like common in any religion. It is without proper sound evidence in Science, and requires a leap of faith rather than dependence on evidence.

Regardless, people who dislike religion would be better off attacking religion than they would be attacking God. God as a concept was invented to be infallible, there are untestable elements to it's existence on purpose. Even whatever God may be is not necessarily called God everywhere, but it's the same rough sketch. Attacking religion however, is concrete and is something you can do using facts and history.

Belief in a "God" has never been an issue in society, but rather what organised religion tells people what the belief is supposed to mean.

EDIT: or pretty much what MarchHare said.

[DuffMan]

OK then, saying that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, do not exist, is factually incorrect also. Got it.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

OK then, saying that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, do not exist, is factually incorrect also. Got it.

Correct.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Correct.

which is where that "common sense" that T@T mentioned comes into play.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

OK then, saying that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, do not exist, is factually incorrect also. Got it.

Yeah Santa Claus as society portrays doesn't exist but there was a real person called Saint Nicholas, who IIRC lived in Turkey and despite Fox News' declaration, was black. There's a lesson there somewhere.

[photon]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

which is where that "common sense" that T@T mentioned comes into play.

But he wasn't talking about common sense, he was saying science proved something, which is different.

Science never "proves" anything, science only has good or better explanations with degrees of confidence given identified assumptions.

Science doesn't prove there's no Santa Clause, science just speaks to the probability given certain assumptions. We choose if that probability is "good enough" for what we're doing; the chance that Santa exists and would impact our lives seems extraordinarily low so it's reasonable to not consider Santa when making day to day decisions. Ignoring the Santa possibility hasn't impacted any results for any scientific endeavour anywhere ever so it's reasonable to continue to ignore Santa unless something specifically leads us to it.

One can say the same thing about god(s). Various definitions may be more or less contradicted by observed reality, but that just means more or less confidence in the conclusion. But it's never "proven", in science nothing ever is. Proof is for math and alcohol.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

which is where that "common sense" that T@T mentioned comes into play.

Appealing to "common sense" is a logical fallacy.

Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "lack of evidence to the contrary"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three). In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.

The fallaciousness of arguments from ignorance does not mean that one can never possess good reasons for thinking that something does not exist, an idea captured by philosopher Bertrand Russell's teapot, a hypothetical china teapot revolving about the sun between Earth and Mars; however this would fall more duly under the arena of pragmatism, wherein a position must be demonstrated or proven in order to be upheld, and therefore the burden of proof is on the argument's proponent.

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

In my hot-headed youth, I would probably advise you to tell your mom how you really feel about religion even though she has threatened to kick you out. Now that I'm older (and hopefully wiser), I'd say your best course is to just continue attending church for the next year or two until you graduate, get a job, are self-sufficient, and move out to a place of your own.

Choose your battles.

Hockey_Ninja - MarchHare is right. There is nothing to be gained from telling your mom her beliefs are wack-a-doodle, and everything to lose. Ride it out for the next few years until you are self sufficient, then have a respectful conversation. My 82 year old mother is quite religious and I see no benefit in my telling her now that I'm not (leaving aside the fact that she is suffering from Alzheimer's and doesn't know who I am half the time, or would remember what I was telling her from one day to the next). She's not pushy about her religion, but it makes her feel, I don't know... happier maybe. To each their own.

In your case, the very real threat of your mom putting you out on the street outweighs any "standing up to the man, respect my rights" feel-good benefit you might receive. Use your visits to church as a comedy hour that will provide countless stories down the road.

[old-fart]

Damn man - Photon and MarchHare are doing all my work in this thread - great points by both. Science can not prove a negative, which is where "burden of proof" comes in. Atheists (for the most part) do not claim "there is no good" - at least I don't. I claim there is zero evidence for any of the myriad of gods that have been worshiped through the ages, including all those currently in circulation. Thus, there is zero reason for me to believe in one, many or all of them (much like Santa and the Easter Bunny).

Theists make a positive claim - that there is a god, and generally one with specific properties (like the god of the bible as an example). The burden of proof is on those making the claim, and the reasonable position to take absence any evidence is one of disbelief. If someone can provide me with sufficient proof of their particular god, I will believe in them too. Until then, I shall remain skeptical.