Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 01-05-2022, 12:03 PM   #961
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFireInside View Post
These comparisons to Germany are kind of silly. Simply adding a privately paid portion doesn't make us like Germany. Their entire system is different, we'd need to change the entire healthcare system. Imagine the outrage at whichever party spent the billions upon billions to do that. The cons want American style, and who knows what the liberals want.

There have to be ways to improve our healthcare system without doing all of that.
So how about the 12 other European countries that have better health care metrics than Canada? Or Australia? Or Japan?

Why are the only options in the minds of many Canadians the status quo or the U.S. model?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.

Last edited by CliffFletcher; 01-05-2022 at 12:08 PM.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:05 PM   #962
TorqueDog
Franchise Player
 
TorqueDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary - Centre West
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG View Post
Probably because in the 3 month chunks of time we deal with waves of the pandemic there is little to nothing to be done to improve outcomes. Also probably because heart/stroke/diabetes/preventable cancers all out kill Covid and healthy lifestyle advertising for those issues has not really worked. And finally up until this wave controlling spread was an effective way of limiting death.

We need added sugar and added fat taxes.
Added sugar taxes, yes. Added fat taxes, no. Sugar is and has always been the problem.
__________________
If the Flames are playing, GO FLAMES GO.
If the Jets are playing, GO JE-... nm, ғ**ĸ the Jets.
GO FLAMES GO.
TorqueDog is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TorqueDog For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:07 PM   #963
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Canada can barely retain the nurses we have; there's no way we'd get away with paying them $45-65K CAD a year like they do in Germany, which is one of the primary reasons they can have more beds for less money.

If we want European-level healthcare, it's going to cost a lot more money given our proximity to the most expensive healthcare system in the world.
So we should resign ourselves to being near the bottom of the OECD table in wait times and access to care, to watching our acute care system routinely operate in crisis mode, because we share a border with the U.S.?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:11 PM   #964
AFireInside
First Line Centre
 
AFireInside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I've been arguing about this for 24 months. A healthy lifestyle / diet / fitness reduces your risk of COVID drastically. But no, we simply can't be asking people to do that.

Also, the CDC said something like 60% of the kids who had adverse reactions to COVID were obese. But lets shut down any potential of kids getting more activity. Man we are screwed.
As a society we've literally been told for decades that being obese is a tremendous health issue. Nothing about any of this is new, and experts were saying this from day one. I remember Michael Osterholm pointing out in March 2020 that America was going to have a tough time with Covid because obese people fair worse with covid.

None of this is new, and isn't going to change the fact that people aren't in shape. Everyone can still get exercise. Nothing is stopping that. Obesity doesn't happen overnight, shutting down certain things (whether I agree with them or not) doesn't change that.
AFireInside is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 12:11 PM   #965
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
So how about the 12 other European countries that have better health care metrics than Canada? Or Australia? Or Japan?

Why the only options in the minds of many Canadians the status quo or the U.S. model?
They basically all spend more public money on health care than Canada does and/or have markedly lower staffing costs:

https://data.oecd.org/chart/6zNO

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
So we should resign ourselves to being near the bottom of the OECD table in wait times and access to care, to watching our acute care system routinely operate in crisis mode, because we share a border with the U.S.?
No, we should spend more money for a better system. But that means higher taxes.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 12:21 PM   #966
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
They basically all spend more public money on health care than Canada does and/or have markedly lower staffing costs:

https://data.oecd.org/chart/6zNO



No, we should spend more money for a better system. But that means higher taxes.
Iím onboard with increasing taxes and spending more money. But only if we can ensure the increased funding actually goes to increasing capacity.

Given the fact previous injections of new funding for health care havenít moved the needle in terms of capacity, and were simply absorbed into the existing structure, itís clear there are entrenched interests and systemic barriers to increasing capacity. Shovelling more money into the system without reform is unlikely to achieve meaningful improvements.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 12:21 PM   #967
AFireInside
First Line Centre
 
AFireInside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
So how about the 12 other European countries that have better health care metrics than Canada? Or Australia? Or Japan?

Why are the only options in the minds of many Canadians the status quo or the U.S. model?
Not sure how me saying there have to be ways to improve our system is status quo. That literally says make changes to our system. It doesn't need to be a complete overhaul.

I didn't comment on the other systems being bad or good. I said it's over simplifying the solution. "Just add a portion of the system from Germany and we'll be just like them". If we want the German system, or any other, we'd need to change a LOT.

I'm sure there are ways we can improve our system without completely overhauling. I think the issues with our healthcare system are often exaggerated as well. There are many improvements we can make, but I don't think it's as bad as some of the comparisons like to make it seem. I could be completely wrong on this, I'm certainly no expert.

Here's a paper that talks about the difficulty with comparing different countries, and why the rankings are problematic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5826705/
AFireInside is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 12:26 PM   #968
Esoteric
First Line Centre
 
Esoteric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog View Post
Added sugar taxes, yes. Added fat taxes, no. Sugar is and has always been the problem.
I thought he meant tax the fatties.
Esoteric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 12:45 PM   #969
comrade
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
So how about the 12 other European countries that have better health care metrics than Canada? Or Australia? Or Japan?

Why are the only options in the minds of many Canadians the status quo or the U.S. model?
Why don't you do the work rather than whine that others aren't putting in enough effort flesh out each case?
comrade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 12:50 PM   #970
Nancy
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Nancy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sunnyvale nursing home
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorqueDog View Post
Added sugar taxes, yes. Added fat taxes, no. Sugar is and has always been the problem.
That's not the whole story, though. The degree to which people are completely sedentary in North America is a larger factor, IMO. And we are not just talking about how much people exercise, we are talking about the fact that they don't have to walk, at all, as part of their daily life.

Body Mass Index (1)
Canada - 27.2
France - 25.3
Germany - 26.3

Calories Consumed per day (2)
Canada - 3530
France - 3530
Germany - 3540

Sugar Consumed Per Day (3)
Canada - 89.1g
France - 68.5g
Germany - 102.9g

Hours of Exercise Per Week (4)
Canada - 6.6
France - 3.7
Germany - 11.1

Steps Walked Per Day (5)
Canada - 4819
France - 5141
Germany - 5205

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ody_mass_index
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._energy_intake
(3) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...sugar-and-fat/
(4) https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...%20Advisor.pdf
(5) https://www.healthline.com/health/av...er-day#country

Last edited by Nancy; 01-05-2022 at 12:54 PM.
Nancy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Nancy For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:52 PM   #971
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

What are the French doing right? Oh not stuffing their fat faces with sugar.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:54 PM   #972
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
What are the French doing right?
Smoking
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to DeluxeMoustache For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:55 PM   #973
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

There is no such thing as a culture of fitness - people respond to their environments. We have a car-centric culture that actively discourages walking or other forms of transportation. Other, more healthy Western countries don't have that.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:56 PM   #974
opendoor
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Iím onboard with increasing taxes and spending more money. But only if we can ensure the increased funding actually goes to increasing capacity.

Given the fact previous injections of new funding for health care havenít moved the needle in terms of capacity, and were simply absorbed into the existing structure, itís clear there are entrenched interests and systemic barriers to increasing capacity. Shovelling more money into the system without reform is unlikely to achieve meaningful improvements.
What injections of new funding? Public health care spending in Canada as a % of GDP in 2019 was identical to what it was in 2010. In contrast, Germany and France increased theirs by 8%, Australia by 12%, Norway by 20%, Japan by 24%, and the United States by 76%.
opendoor is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to opendoor For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 12:58 PM   #975
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
What injections of new funding? Public health care spending in Canada as a % of GDP in 2019 was identical to what it was in 2010. In contrast, Germany and France increased theirs by 8%, Australia by 12%, Norway by 20%, Japan by 24%, and the United States by 76%.
The Canadian myth is that ever since the 1960s, our healthcare has been the best, America has been the worst, and the rest of the world doesn't exist.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 01:00 PM   #976
looooob
Franchise Player
 
looooob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
The Canadian myth is that ever since the 1960s, our healthcare has been the best, America has been the worst, and the rest of the world doesn't exist.
do people really believe that though? I mean I may have seen that Heritage moment but it doesn't ring widely held , maybe I travel in the wrong (right?) circles
looooob is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to looooob For This Useful Post:
Old 01-05-2022, 01:03 PM   #977
looooob
Franchise Player
 
looooob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache View Post
Smoking
and Jerry Lewis
looooob is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 01:04 PM   #978
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob View Post
do people really believe that though? I mean I may have seen that Heritage moment but it doesn't ring widely held , maybe I travel in the wrong (right?) circles
Canadian healthcare is regularly held among the most cherished of national values.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 01:05 PM   #979
PeteMoss
Franchise Player
 
PeteMoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: SW Ontario
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Canadian healthcare is regularly held among the most cherished of national values.
The publicly funded - anyone can access part is.
PeteMoss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2022, 01:09 PM   #980
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMoss View Post
The publicly funded - anyone can access part is.
Sure, not dentistry, pharmaceuticals, and physiotherapy where we are just as private as anywhere in the United States.

My point is, that it is all a myth based on a recent(ish) shift in our national character that is lazy, complacent, and smug.
peter12 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:54 AM.

Calgary Flames
2021-22




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021