[Signing] Flames re-sign Mangiapane (2 yrs, $2.425 mil AAV)

[Heavy Jack]

Eat bread needs to be given more time on the PK and PP and I think you will really see his offensive numbers bloom. Great bridge deal here wish we could have locked him up on a long term value deal!

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Jaydee

I mean... He did play the season on our actual first line

Which would just further prove my point...

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Last season, Mangiapane played 861:18 at 5v5, which ranked 116th among NHL forwards.

In those minutes, Mangiapane:

- scored 15 goals (tied for 43rd among all NHL forwards - 1st line production)
- scored at a rate of 1.04 goals per 60 minutes (ties for 54th among all NHL forwards - 1st line production)

- had 11 primary assists (tied for 71st among all NHL forwards - 1st line production)
- recorded primary assists at a rate of 0.77 per 60 minutes (tied for 83rd among all NHL forwards - 1st line production)

- had 29 total points (tied for 77th among all NHL forwards - 1st line production)
- recorded points at a rate of 2.02 per 60 minutes (tied for 86th among all NHL forwards - 1st line production)

All despite playing against elite competition night in and night out on the shutdown line.

By all accounts, Mangiapane produced like a first liner offensively 5v5 last season.

By all accounts, Mangiapane was also a beast defensively with incredible possession + scoring chance rates.

You are understating your case He had 17 ES goals. and 31 ES pts

It would almost seem that the Flames organization was suppressing his stats by keeping him off the PP.


BUT then you would have to consider that Gaudreau 12 ES goals and Monahan 14 did not do as much as Mangiapane to get the PP time.

If Mangiapane were to replace either one of them as a PP shooter would the Flames have a better PP?

[Enoch Root]

And this is why you don't build teams based on stats.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You are understating your case He had 17 ES goals. and 31 ES pts

It would almost seem that the Flames organization was suppressing his stats by keeping him off the PP.


BUT then you would have to consider that Gaudreau 12 ES goals and Monahan 14 did not do as much as Mangiapane to get the PP time.

If Mangiapane were to replace either one of them as a PP shooter would the Flames have a better PP?

I used 5v5 stats, not ES.

Whereas Gaudreau (86 minutes), Monahan (82 minutes), Tkachuk (81 minutes), Lindholm (77 minutes) and Backlund (51 minutes) received significant additional time when using ES, Mangiapane (25 minutes) received very little additional time, which given he was still coming into his own last year, is kinda fair.

But at 5v5, Mangiapane was very arguably the best Flames' forward.

It's impossible to know how much of an asset he'd be on the PP or PK without consistent time, but he's more than earned the right to be a mainstay on PP2 at minimum, and considering he was one of the top 3 defensive forwards on the Flames, he should definitely be tested on the PK as well (although great 5v5 defense doesn't always translate to great PK defense)

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And this is why you don't build teams based on stats.

A+ argument.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

A+ argument.

A+ rebuttal

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

A+ argument.

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

I used 5v5 stats, not ES.

Whereas Gaudreau (86 minutes), Monahan (82 minutes), Tkachuk (81 minutes), Lindholm (77 minutes) and Backlund (51 minutes) received significant additional time when using ES, Mangiapane (25 minutes) received very little additional time, which given he was still coming into his own last year, is kinda fair.

But at 5v5, Mangiapane was very arguably the best Flames' forward.

It's impossible to know how much of an asset he'd be on the PP or PK without consistent time, but he's more than earned the right to be a mainstay on PP2 at minimum, and considering he was one of the top 3 defensive forwards on the Flames, he should definitely be tested on the PK as well (although great 5v5 defense doesn't always translate to great PK defense)

see above

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

A+ rebuttal

I've provided factual arguments supporting how good of a player Mangiapane was last season.

Your response was "This is why you don't build teams based on stats".

Well, should you judge them on the effect they have on the outcome of the game? Well, you can't, because stats show that.

Well, should you judge them based on how well they can get to the right areas of the ice to both prevent and develop scoring chances? Well, you can't, because stats show that.

Might as well put the names of players on a piece of paper and randomly pull them from a jar.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

see above

I am very sorry that Mangiapane was one of, if not the Flames' best, most effective forward at 5v5 last season by most measures.

You are correct. Your "This is why you don't build teams based on stats" is such a great, inarguable rebuttal that I'm at a loss for words.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

I've provided factual arguments supporting how good of a player Mangiapane was last season.

Your response was "This is why you don't build teams based on stats".

Well, should you judge them on the effect they have on the outcome of the game? Well, you can't, because stats show that.

Well, should you judge them based on how well they can get to the right areas of the ice to both prevent and develop scoring chances? Well, you can't, because stats show that.

Might as well put the names of players on a piece of paper and randomly pull them from a jar.



I am very sorry that Mangiapane was one of, if not the Flames' best, most effective forward at 5v5 last season by most measures.

You are correct. Your "This is why you don't build teams based on stats" is such a great, inarguable rebuttal that I'm at a loss for words.

I am to lazy to go back and read how this discussion developed ...can someone summarize?

[Enoch Root]

My post was in reference to ricardodw's conclusions ("Gaudreau 12 ES goals and Monahan 14 did not do as much as Mangiapane to get the PP time. If Mangiapane were to replace either one of them as a PP shooter would the Flames have a better PP?")

You are clearly very sensitive with respect to this topic. Yes, Mangiapane's 5on5 stats were solid this year. No dispute.

But jumping to the conclusion that he was the Flames' best forward 5on5, is rather premature IMO.

1) all observation, by pretty much everyone, disagrees with the conclusion (he had a great year, but no one - other than those that completely buy into these stats - think he was the best forward)
2) his line had a hot streak - let's see if they can actually repeat that before he call him our best forward
3) he had a very high shooting percentage through that hot streak

All players (and lines) have hot streaks. The problem here is that there isn't enough other data to normalize his numbers. If he puts up more periods of excellent numbers, and the data continues to support this data, then we can start to have more confidence about our conclusions.

But so far, that conclusion is not only pre-mature, but conflicts with observation.

[Enoch Root]

Those continually quoting his stats, as the argument for why he is so good/under-rated, I ask you: what about his playoff stats?

Yes, it is a small sample size wrt the playoffs, but it is also a small sample (of less than one season) with the regular season stats.

If he is as good as the (small sample of) stats say, how do you account for the more modest showing in the playoffs?

Based on the playoffs, one could conclude that Bennett was our best forward. I would consider that conclusion about equally as pre-mature.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

My post was in reference to ricardodw's conclusions ("Gaudreau 12 ES goals and Monahan 14 did not do as much as Mangiapane to get the PP time. If Mangiapane were to replace either one of them as a PP shooter would the Flames have a better PP?")

You are clearly very sensitive with respect to this topic. Yes, Mangiapane's 5on5 stats were solid this year. No dispute.

But jumping to the conclusion that he was the Flames' best forward 5on5, is rather premature IMO.

1) all observation, by pretty much everyone, disagrees with the conclusion (he had a great year, but no one - other than those that completely buy into these stats - think he was the best forward)
2) his line had a hot streak - let's see if they can actually repeat that before he call him our best forward
3) he had a very high shooting percentage through that hot streak

All players (and lines) have hot streaks. The problem here is that there isn't enough other data to normalize his numbers. If he puts up more periods of excellent numbers, and the data continues to support this data, then we can start to have more confidence about our conclusions.

But so far, that conclusion is not only pre-mature, but conflicts with observation.

In a normal year, Mangiapane likely wouldn't be in the discussion, but while the top guys (specifically the top line) struggled all year, Mangiapane played solid hockey and as a result, had among the top counting stats on the team as well as micro stats.

I'm not at all saying Mangiapane is the most skilled player on the team, or the best skater, or has the best shot, etc.. I'm sure Mangiapane doesn't have one particular trait where he's better than everyone else on the team, but he's right up there with Tkachuk in terms of his hockey IQ and knowing where to be on the ice at all times and his tenacious, never give up play style allows him to create offense out of nowhere while also helping limit chances in his own end.

He'll very likely never be the go-to guy on a team, nor will he every put up Gaudreau offensive numbers, but his elite work ethic and IQ combined with his above-average all around play makes for a very effective hockey player that leads to the excellent results he put up this year in which he had first line production at 5v5 while providing elite defense.

As for special teams, I know you weren't responding to me on that area, but that's where I agree with you and said it in a previous post how great offense or defense at 5v5 doesn't necessarily translate to great PP or PK effectiveness, but at the very least, he's earned the opportunity to get consistent PP2 and PK time.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

My post was in reference to ricardodw's conclusions ("Gaudreau 12 ES goals and Monahan 14 did not do as much as Mangiapane to get the PP time. If Mangiapane were to replace either one of them as a PP shooter would the Flames have a better PP?")

You are clearly very sensitive with respect to this topic. Yes, Mangiapane's 5on5 stats were solid this year. No dispute.

But jumping to the conclusion that he was the Flames' best forward 5on5, is rather premature IMO.

1) all observation, by pretty much everyone, disagrees with the conclusion (he had a great year, but no one - other than those that completely buy into these stats - think he was the best forward)
2) his line had a hot streak - let's see if they can actually repeat that before he call him our best forward
3) he had a very high shooting percentage through that hot streak

All players (and lines) have hot streaks. The problem here is that there isn't enough other data to normalize his numbers. If he puts up more periods of excellent numbers, and the data continues to support this data, then we can start to have more confidence about our conclusions.

But so far, that conclusion is not only pre-mature, but conflicts with observation.

While Mangiapane might not have looked that effective in the Playoffs, he still had very strong impacts relative to his teammates. He also tied for the team lead among Flames forwards in 5v5 points (3).

Now, were his numbers anywhere near as good as they were in the regular season? No. But he still had among the best numbers on the team at 5v5 in the Playoffs because everyone outside of the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line sucked for the second year in a row.

[Freddy]

Now, were his numbers anywhere near as good as they were in the regular season? No. But he still had among the best numbers on the team at 5v5 in the Playoffs because everyone outside of the Lucic-Bennett-Dube line sucked for the second year in a row.[/QUOTE]

He looked injured and unable to be his normal self to my eye, in the Dallas series especially. I fully expect him to have another gear the next post season. He is a play driver, which I think is way more valuable than guys that are great finishers but lurk on the perimeter when not scoring.

[HockeyKhan]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Must say I'll be very pissed if Mangi switches from #88.

Top-tier number and he looks great in it.

Hey Scorp, what makes you think that's a possibility?

[Hackey]

Flames are going to need internal growth so hopefully Mangiapane right, can turn into a consistent 20+g 50+p player.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Flames are going to need internal growth so hopefully Mangiapane right, can turn into a consistent 20+g 50+p player.

Yup. Mangiapane, Dube and Bennett all need to get better.

And if they do, suddenly you have a young group of guys to build around, making it easier to consider transitioning from Monahan and/or Gaudreau.

[Sylvanfan]

I like this deal because it's likely going to be the two best seasons production wise of Mangiapane's career and it's short enough to keep him hungry.

The old school highly flawed eye test tells me that given the chance he would produce on the PP. To me he's like Camalleri as he can shoot from distance but has quick enough hands in the tight areas.

[Jaybo]

Not specifically about Mangiapane and apologies if this has been discussed but do we know what happens to contracts if the NHL has to continue when the next season starts (January?) with no (or limited) crowds.

I assume most contracts are based on teams having revenues of ~40 games with ~20,000 fans paying ~$100 per ticket. If that revenue (plus all ancillary revenue from concessions to parking to game day merchandise sales) is gone, how to teams honour their contracts with players which are all staying (roughly) where'd you'd expect them to be B.C. (Before Covid).