I think the people who have closer connections with TOS, have the most problems with TNG/Movies and the New Trek. They hold a sub-par TV show with a 3 good movies too close to their hearts that they're unwilling to look at the good coming out of the other series and films (except Voyager, that's trash).
Star Trek has been vital to the creation, invention and growth of innovation is our world. Does anyone honestly think that we would be working on teleportation in our lifetimes if not for Star Trek? Or as William Shatner saves the world tells me, MRI machines? Cell phones? I mean we are maybe 10-15 years from full on tricorders at this rate. The idea of warp? I'd dare say Star Trek has helped cultivate advancement in science more than science has itself.
I think the people who have closer connections with TOS, have the most problems with TNG/Movies and the New Trek. They hold a sub-par TV show with a 3 good movies too close to their hearts that they're unwilling to look at the good coming out of the other series and films (except Voyager, that's trash).
Sub-par? Not even close, the best Original Series episodes were just excellent TV. Admittedly the final year of original Trek when the budget had been slashed and people had pretty much given up lead to some horrible episodes.
Taste of Armageddon where they found a planet where wars were fought by computer and people marched into extermination machines was amazing
The Doomsday Machine was the mobey dick episode and exceptional
Journey to Babel was a great episode that introduced us to Spocks parents
The Enterprise Incident was a cloak and dagger episode and one of my favorites
Amok Time where Spock returns to Vulcan to get it onnnn and showed the Vulcans aren't unemotional they just suppress a violent war like nature.
Where no man has gone before, where Kirks best friend becomes a god and corrupted by his power
Trouble with Tribbles, so good that Deep Space 9 re did it years later with footage from the original
Let this be your last battlefield tackled racism in a clever way. "Don't you see Captain, he's black on the left side of his face".
Mirror Mirror one of the best episodes of any of the shows that showed the Dark universe Empire, inspired a whole story line in DS9
Space Seed introduced Kahn, one of the best episodes of any series
Balance of Terror - introduced the Romulans and created incredible tension
City on the edge of forever far and away the best of Trek.
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The concepts presented in TOS are great. No doubting that. But looking back at the actual episodes, much of the set design and acting is subpar and doesn't hold up over time.
The core characters are fantastic though and seeing them in the good movies with better production values shows how great the are.
But like I said, the people that love TOS hold it in high regard and seem to look at the episodes with rose-coloured glasses. Probably the same way I do with TNG and some of those early seasons that I still think are good despite knowing better.
The concepts presented in TOS are great. No doubting that. But looking back at the actual episodes, much of the set design and acting is subpar and doesn't hold up over time.
The core characters are fantastic though and seeing them in the good movies with better production values shows how great the are.
But like I said, the people that love TOS hold it in high regard and seem to look at the episodes with rose-coloured glasses. Probably the same way I do with TNG and some of those early seasons that I still think are good despite knowing better.
Yeah I am one person who sees TOS with rose colored glasses, based largely on my age when I first watched it and the bond I still have with my Dad over our shared love for the series.
You are underselling the set design though, which I suspect was utterly groundbreaking for the time. Acting may have been hit or miss but the actors helped create iconic characters which simply speaks for itself, doesn't it?
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The concepts presented in TOS are great. No doubting that. But looking back at the actual episodes, much of the set design and acting is subpar and doesn't hold up over time.
The core characters are fantastic though and seeing them in the good movies with better production values shows how great the are.
But like I said, the people that love TOS hold it in high regard and seem to look at the episodes with rose-coloured glasses. Probably the same way I do with TNG and some of those early seasons that I still think are good despite knowing better.
Set design in the 60's and 70's doesn't hold up, I'm hardly surprised by that.
And lets not hold the acting in newer star trek to a higher order, in the first two years of TNG the acting was atrocious, even Stewart was wooden and awful and gave the vibe that he didn't want to be there. Some actors like Dorn, and Gates and Sitris were pretty bad through out the series.
I can't possibly say that TOS was subpar because even now, when I watch Space Seed and Mirror Mirror and Balance of Terror (which I watched today) it was just top notch, well acted and amazing.
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I avidly watched TOS in syndication when I was a kid. Watched the first season of TNG when I was in high school, and while I liked it, I caught only the occasional episode during its subsequent run.
So when I began a Star Trek re-watch with my kids a year ago, I thought I'd be looking at TOS with rose-tinted glasses. Turns out that the better episodes still hold up. The productions are vivid, in a pulpy way. The music is iconic - eerie, exotic, or bombastic as necessary. The sets may look flimsy, but the lighting, with dramatic purples and greens, gives TOS an appealingly weird feel. Of course the character dynamics of the leads still hold up.
While I enjoyed going through the 7 seasons of TNG, especially once it hit its stride in seasons 3 to 5, it's missing some of the lurid charm of TOS. TNG enterprise looks like the first class lounge at Phoenix airport circa 1985. I find the score (aside from the opening theme) sleep-inducing. Burton, Gates and Sirtis have the charisma of potted plants. Even when TNG is strong, it's struggling through a morass of beige blandness. One gets the impression of an audience nestled in afghans, cats padding by, pots of chamomile tea on side tables.
I was expecting my kids to dislike TOS, but they far preferred it to TNG. Loved the characters. The sense of strange exploration. When we got into TNG the kids started getting bored. My daughter said the characters liked each other too much - a pretty astute observation for a nine year old.
I enjoy both shows. Both have their classic episodes, their terrible episodes, and a lot in-between. If I were to list my top 10 episodes, it would probably have 5 from TOS and 5 from TNG
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
I avidly watched TOS in syndication when I was a kid. Watched the first season of TNG when I was in high school, and while I liked it, I caught only the occasional episode during its subsequent run.
So when I began a Star Trek re-watch with my kids a year ago, I thought I'd be looking at TOS with rose-tinted glasses. Turns out that the better episodes still hold up. The productions are vivid, in a pulpy way. The music is iconic - eerie, exotic, or bombastic as necessary. The sets may look flimsy, but the lighting, with dramatic purples and greens, gives TOS an appealingly weird feel. Of course the character dynamics of the leads still hold up.
While I enjoyed going through the 7 seasons of TNG, especially once it hit its stride in seasons 3 to 5, it's missing some of the lurid charm of TOS. TNG enterprise looks like the first class lounge at Phoenix airport circa 1985. I find the score (aside from the opening theme) sleep-inducing. Burton, Gates and Sirtis have the charisma of potted plants. Even when TNG is strong, it's struggling through a morass of beige blandness. One gets the impression of an audience nestled in afghans, cats padding by, pots of chamomile tea on side tables.
I was expecting my kids to dislike TOS, but they far preferred it to TNG. Loved the characters. The sense of strange exploration. When we got into TNG the kids started getting bored. My daughter said the characters liked each other too much - a pretty astute observation for a nine year old.
I enjoy both shows. Both have their classic episodes, their terrible episodes, and a lot in-between. If I were to list my top 10 episodes, it would probably have 5 from TOS and 5 from TNG
this is what really hits me and maybe its nitpicking. But it takes away from any sense of danger or striving.
the Enterprise looks like this immense floating hotel. every crew member has their own luxury quarters, even during a battle you don't sense danger because aside from some chair shaking you don't get conduits exploding or going dark on the bridge, you don't see battle damage on the ship at all, and next week everything is pristine again.
Even the bridge looks too soft.
I get that everything is probably auto fixed by robots that come out of the wall at night and vacuum the carpets and touch up the paint, but you just never ever sense that there's danger.
Voyager for all of its faults did a tremendous job of this especially in the year from hell story line where the ship was a train wreck by the end.
In the movies they did a better job of it especially in generations and I was glad to see the D go away because I thought it looked like the love boat in space. The E looked like a ship of war.
the other thing that always blew my mind is that they needed to have a three man command station, one for the XO and one for the third officer who was also a ships Councillor. Even in modern navy terms there's one command station for the Captain or the officer of the watch.
Deep Space 9 was great for the realism of a station in space for a long period of time, everything was patchwork, and towards the end of the war the station started taken on a beaten and weary look.
So what would I change if I was a Star Trek creator
1) Major ship redesign. I would love to see a bridge and a CIC even if the CIC is at the back of the bridge. Enterprise tried this and I kind of liked it. Then you could have the XO steering the ship and the Captain fighting the ship.
2) Every ship should have a contingent of marines who are on away missions, and you can't have the whole senior staff going on an away mission together. Enterprise did a great job of having MACO's that went on away missions to provide security and assault.
3) Take away the luxury crew quarters. Even on a modern carrier very few people get their own cabins. You could set up some great side story lines with room mates. You could even have barracks for the enlisted men.
4) Speaking of which, every body serving in Star Fleet seems to be commissioned, the command structure has to be a nightmare. In TNG there were only a handful of chiefs. But you never saw Seamen, or spacemen or whatever the lower rank structures would be.
5) Battle damage. Even with shields a ship is going to take some damage as energy overloads them or leaks through. Have conduits go dead, have more then the transporters or the warp core containment unit fail. Add to the captains problems with sensors or weapons, or even dampeners going down at key points. and show battle damage on the hull of the ship. I still remember in Undiscovered country when a torpedo blew through the saucer, or In the Search for Spock when the Enterprise pulled into space dock with the long scars down its side.
I'm not saying that I didn't like TNG, I think that they followed Roddenberry's vision too closely and it removed a lot of the tension from the show. And yeah, Burton and the others eventually became background characters because they were just dry characters with nothing to really add.
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this is what really hits me and maybe its nitpicking. But it takes away from any sense of danger or striving.
the Enterprise looks like this immense floating hotel. every crew member has their own luxury quarters, even during a battle you don't sense danger because aside from some chair shaking you don't get conduits exploding or going dark on the bridge, you don't see battle damage on the ship at all, and next week everything is pristine again.
Even the bridge looks too soft.
It was deliberate. In season 3 they replaced the composer, and the new guy was told to make the score fade into the background like wallpaper. Even the ambient hum of the ship was meant to be soothing. TNG was sci-fi as a cozy cup of herbal tea.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
I absolutely loved how BattleStar Galactica finally arrived at its final destination.
It was a wreck, its back was broken and it was barely hanging on.
In voyager when the ship made its final jump to earth and was battling the borg, it still looked prestine and it outgunned its enemies on the way back.
In Enterprise when the ship returned from the expanse after a year on its own, it should have been beaten to pieces.
Even with TNG after their battles show it coming into space dock with scars and the bridge with half of its lights out and coolant coming out of ruptured conduits.
Now I know that budget has a lot to do with it to. And we didn't see it in TOS either, but it just lends to the crew in jeopardy and the whole, space is a killer they're lucky they're alive.
Even in Generations when the saucer section separated (I hated that concept) and crashes they did a nice job of damage, but it felt forced that because they destroyed the original enterprise that they had to do the same here.
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I do find it odd that its debuting right after 'The Orville.'
We're going to have two 'Space Adventure' shows on TV at the same time and one is Genuine (or branded) Star Trek and the other is kind of a spoof but not really?
Grand times for television.
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