American Politics Thread: The Hunt for Blue November

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

.......

Can you imagine how Trump would have dealt with 9/11 if it had happened on his watch? The outright war he would wage on Muslims? The kind of division he would have stoked in the country? The blaming of Democrats for "promoting radical Islamic extremism"? Squarely blaming Democrats for the attack?

Can you imagine how Trump would have dealt with Vietnam and the Cold War? I can, but it's completely irrelevant.

Of all of Bush's enormous flaws (and there were many), the one thing he can say is that he united the country in response to a major attack on its soil.

No, he didn't. He used a national tragedy for political gain to push the country to the far right, create a security state the likes which has never been in modern Western civilization, and start two major military operations that sank the U.S. into some of the worst deficits its ever seen, created millions of casualties directly and millions more due to the instability in the ME.

Also, I don't think Bush told 20k+ lies and misleading statements, to pollute public discourse to the point of complete obfuscation of every conversation.

Um what? How old were you from 2000 - 2008. The Bush administration lied its freaking ass off about everything. They used Fox News far more effectively than Trump does and did a much more effective job of branding dissenters as traitors to the country.

Originally Posted by #-3

While not "war crimes", theres a great body of evidence for crimes against humanity.

If we're going to do this, then at least do it honestly and compare it to previous presidents.

Putting Refugees in cages. - Began under Obama
Implicitly endorsing chinese concentration camps - FDR built literal concentration camps for Japanese Americans in the 40s
Turning a blind eye to hit orders against his own citizens - Also occurred under Obama
Ordering his own military to take actions against his own citizens - Kent State happened under Nixon
Re-envigorating the death penalty.......- Has happened under literally every Republican president since Reagan
Assasinatiing World Leaders to prove a point.- As opposed to when Ghadafi was assassinated by Obama?
Dropping big bombs on airports because they have a cool name.- How many children's hospitals did he bomb? (Clinton)

I think its fair to remind everyone that Bush, Regan, Nixon... were all terrible, and ever since Goldwater the GOP has failed to offer a vision of a better America. But we shouldn't compare any of these people to Trump, they took the job seriously.

I don't really give a rat's ass if they took the job seriously. They all committed far more atrocities than Trump has. The body count in Asia under Nixon is abhorrent as are the body counts under Reagan and the two Bush administrations.

This is why I can't even get behind the notion that Trump is worst president ever. Most embarrassing? Absolutely. But the absolute carnage, destruction, death, and human rights abuses, abuses of power, etc., that have gone on under almost every other single president since the end WW2 (Carter possibly being the lone exception) the destruction caused by the Trump administration. Most of that is largely due to Trump's incompetence rather than who he is as a person, but some of you really need to turn off MSNBC and read some history if you truly think this president holds a candle to some of the other monsters on the list.

[Looch City]

Where Trump has every other President beat is his level of corruption. In my opinion, that alone is reason enough to label him as one of the worst, if not the worst.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Where Trump has every other President beat is his level of corruption. In my opinion, that alone is reason enough to label him as one of the worst, if not the worst.

I don't even know that that is necessarily true. Remember Cheney and Haliburton?

[Red]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Can you imagine how Trump would have dealt with Vietnam and the Cold War? I can, but it's completely irrelevant.



No, he didn't. He used a national tragedy for political gain to push the country to the far right, create a security state the likes which has never been in modern Western civilization, and start two major military operations that sank the U.S. into some of the worst deficits its ever seen, created millions of casualties directly and millions more due to the instability in the ME.



Um what? How old were you from 2000 - 2008. The Bush administration lied its freaking ass off about everything. They used Fox News far more effectively than Trump does and did a much more effective job of branding dissenters as traitors to the country.



If we're going to do this, then at least do it honestly and compare it to previous presidents.

Putting Refugees in cages. - Began under Obama
Implicitly endorsing chinese concentration camps - FDR built literal concentration camps for Japanese Americans in the 40s
Turning a blind eye to hit orders against his own citizens - Also occurred under Obama
Ordering his own military to take actions against his own citizens - Kent State happened under Nixon
Re-envigorating the death penalty.......- Has happened under literally every Republican president since Reagan
Assasinatiing World Leaders to prove a point.- As opposed to when Ghadafi was assassinated by Obama?
Dropping big bombs on airports because they have a cool name.- How many children's hospitals did he bomb? (Clinton)



I don't really give a rat's ass if they took the job seriously. They all committed far more atrocities than Trump has. The body count in Asia under Nixon is abhorrent as are the body counts under Reagan and the two Bush administrations.

This is why I can't even get behind the notion that Trump is worst president ever. Most embarrassing? Absolutely. But the absolute carnage, destruction, death, and human rights abuses, abuses of power, etc., that have gone on under almost every other single president since the end WW2 (Carter possibly being the lone exception) the destruction caused by the Trump administration. Most of that is largely due to Trump's incompetence rather than who he is as a person, but some of you really need to turn off MSNBC and read some history if you truly think this president holds a candle to some of the other monsters on the list.

That's a lot of Breitbart rubbish you posted above. And we are to believe you are not a right winger? LOL


And just wanted to add one more "carnage" stat. 155K+ americans dead from Hoax Covid under Trump

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Red

That's a lot of Breitbart rubbish you posted above.

Sorry, which parts are untrue?

And we are to believe you are not a right winger? LOL

And this might be the most hilarious/idiotic thing posted on this site since that dude called Bingo a "CDC paste-eating troll."

And just wanted to add one more "carnage" stat. 155K+ americans dead from Hoax Covid under Trump

And you'd need another 10 more years of COVID to approach the deaths caused by the Iraq War.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

https://twitter.com/user/status/1291552038455775233

Trump just basically outlawed League of Legends, Call of Duty and World of Warcraft in the US.

Edit: Fortnite too

I'm surprised this executive order regarding Wechat and Tik Tok isn't getting more discussion. It's a move with potential to rapidly escalate economic conflict between the US and China to new highs. Very unsettling.

[Red]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Sorry, which parts are untrue?



And this might be the most hilarious/idiotic thing posted on this site since that dude called Bingo a "CDC paste-eating troll."



And you'd need another 10 more years of COVID to approach the deaths caused by the Iraq War.

Let's start with Gaddafi. He was not assassinated by Obama. He was murdered by his own people during the uprising.



And can you expand on Obama turning a blind eye to hit orders on his troops?


And why was my comment idiotic? I dont really pay too much attention to who said what and when, I dont go digging in peoples past posts etc so I may not have you figured out 100%. But from what I just read in regards to Biden in the last couple days, I thought you were painting yourself as a pro-Bernie democrat.

And how many Americans died in Iraq? Exactly.
Your posts scream a closet republican.

[PepsiFree]

rubecube is most certainly not a closet republication, and I'm not sure what value accusations like that have. Even if he were a republican, it wouldn't matter.

While I disagree with a few of rube's characterisations of those events, it is worth being accurate about what makes Trump one of the worst presidents in US history, and mentioning why some others fully belong in that same class.

[ResAlien]

Oh man this is gold it’s like watching a really stupid cable news argument panel play out in real time.

[Red]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

rubecube is most certainly not a closet republication, and I'm not sure what value accusations like that have. Even if he were a republican, it wouldn't matter.

While I disagree with a few of rube's characterisations of those events, it is worth being accurate about what makes Trump one of the worst presidents in US history, and mentioning why some others fully belong in that same class.

I dont care if he is or isnt a republican. Just found it curious why a democrat is waging a war against their presidential candidate.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is why I can't even get behind the notion that Trump is worst president ever. Most embarrassing? Absolutely. But the absolute carnage, destruction, death, and human rights abuses, abuses of power, etc., that have gone on under almost every other single president since the end WW2 (Carter possibly being the lone exception) the destruction caused by the Trump administration. Most of that is largely due to Trump's incompetence rather than who he is as a person, but some of you really need to turn off MSNBC and read some history if you truly think this president holds a candle to some of the other monsters on the list.

I generally agree with most of what you wrote. However, the real danger of Trump and what makes him the potential worst President ever is not the monster he is himself but rather the monster he emboldens or even creates. Trump is all about Trump. He will do whatever is good for him. If it helps Americans that's a bonus. If it helps Americans and the World, that's an even bigger bonus. If it hurts America and/or the World, too bad. He simply doesn't care about other human beings.

Trump hasn't started any wars, hasn't been responsible for mass atrocities, political coups or even the genocides of past Presidents. What he is responsible for is the rise of fascism and authoritarianism in America and around the World. Russia, China, Turkey, Brazil, Iran, North Korea and others have been emboldened by Trump whereas, even with a Neo-Con as President, they would have at least been given some pause.

The truth is that we don't know the aggregate negative impact of Trump yet and we likely won't for decades to come. The worst case scenario is potentially worse than any of the cases you sited. That's why it's so important to get rid of Trump and defeat Trumpism as quickly as possible before the roots get even deeper and more tangled. We need to be all-in on Biden now as enthusiastically as we can muster. When he's in office, then he should be held accountable. But in the meantime, the focus has to be on defeating Trump soundly.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I generally agree with most of what you wrote. However, the real danger of Trump and what makes him the potential worst President ever is not the monster he is himself but rather the monster he emboldens or even creates. Trump is all about Trump. He will do whatever is good for him. If it helps Americans that's a bonus. If it helps Americans and the World, that's an even bigger bonus. If it hurts America and/or the World, too bad. He simply doesn't care about other human beings.

Trump hasn't started any wars, hasn't been responsible for mass atrocities, political coups or even the genocides of past Presidents. What he is responsible for is the rise of fascism and authoritarianism in America and around the World. Russia, China, Turkey, Brazil, Iran, North Korea and others have been emboldened by Trump whereas, even with a Neo-Con as President, they would have at least been given some pause.

The truth is that we don't know the aggregate negative impact of Trump yet and we likely won't for decades to come. The worst case scenario is potentially worse than any of the cases you sited. That's why it's so important to get rid of Trump and defeat Trumpism as quickly as possible before the roots get even deeper and more tangled. We need to be all-in on Biden now as enthusiastically as we can muster. When he's in office, then he should be held accountable. But in the meantime, the focus has to be on defeating Trump soundly.

Trump isnt starting wars outside because these wars are typically about some grand vision, western ideologies like instilling democracies, freeing a country from oppressive governments etc. Trump doesnt care about these things.

He is busy robbing the country blind and making sure his kids and friends get taken care of as well. All about the Trumps and at all costs. Free world be damned.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Red

I dont care if he is or isnt a republican. Just found it curious why a democrat is waging a war against their presidential candidate.

Because though Democrats are positioned to the left of Republicans in the weird straight-line dichotomy of US politics, there is no world where the Democrats, and Biden in particular, would fall left-of-centre in any other Western country.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Red

I dont care if he is or isnt a republican. Just found it curious why a democrat is waging a war against their presidential candidate.

Because he's not a Democrat, not even American, and even progressives like myself who would swallow their pride and support Biden still do not like Biden?

I'm against the petty attacks as anyone, but noting actual Democrat policies that have been harmful is something we should do. Rubecube might be a more ideological progressive than I am, and that probably makes him a better one, but it doesn't make him a right winger.

Acting like the entire history of the Democrats is sunshine and roses is incredibly naive.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Red

Let's start with Gaddafi. He was not assassinated by Obama. He was murdered by his own people during the uprising.

Yep, you're right. I got it mixed up with the whole Libya fiasco and thought it occurred at the same time. The intervention in Libya was still an absolutely stupid thing to do and just more terrible U.S. foreign policy.

And can you expand on Obama turning a blind eye to hit orders on his troops?

I see you're referring to the Russian bounties. I misread what was written and thought this was referring to Trump attacking his own citizens, which most certainly happened under Obama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_...ut%20a%20trial.

Trump decided to up the ante by murdering the guy's 8 year-old daughter.

And how many Americans died in Iraq? Exactly.

Are American lives more valuable than Iraqi lives?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Are American lives more valuable than Iraqi lives?

Sadly, to many people, yes. It's the same disgusting issue you see with the anti-immigration/asylum people. "Take care of our own before you take care of others!"

Lives are lives, regardless of where someone is from.

Killing tens or hundreds of thousands of Americans through negligence is political suicide, but killing tens or hundreds of thousands of "the other" is part of what makes America strong, apparently.

[Red]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Because he's not a Democrat, not even American, and even progressives like myself who would swallow their pride and support Biden still do not like Biden?

I'm against the petty attacks as anyone, but noting actual Democrat policies that have been harmful is something we should do. Rubecube might be a more ideological progressive than I am, and that probably makes him a better one, but it doesn't make him a right winger.

Acting like the entire history of the Democrats is sunshine and roses is incredibly naive.

I get all that and in no way am I painting the Dems as great and I realize that we dont (most of us) exactly get to vote anyway. I am just puzzled how a person that wants Trump defeated keeps slamming his only competition. It seems illogical to me.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Red

I get all that and in no way am I painting the Dems as great and I realize that we dont (most of us) exactly get to vote anyway. I am just puzzled how a person that wants Trump defeated keeps slamming his only competition. It seems illogical to me.

I mean I posted why literally yesterday.

Originally Posted by rubecube

I want people to hold him accountable for who he has been and how he's contributed to the mess that is the current political landscape. I want people to vote for him, but go into his administration with their eyes open and hold his feet to the fire as soon as he starts falling back on old habits.

My worry is that people continue to see Trump as the disease and not the symptom of greater issues, to which Biden has been a tremendous contributor to. This is exemplified by the revisionist history of the Bush administration (and embrace of neocon shills) who caused far more catastrophic damage than Trump has.

Yes, it'll be nice to have a president who doesn't say the quiet parts loud, but this whole "return to normal" ideation really ignores the fact that the "normal" of 2008 - 2016 was still really ####ty for millions of people and we need someone to do better than normal if we want to avoid 4-8 years of even more extreme (and probably more competent) fascism in 2024 or 2028.

[Red]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yep, you're right. I got it mixed up with the whole Libya fiasco and thought it occurred at the same time. The intervention in Libya was still an absolutely stupid thing to do and just more terrible U.S. foreign policy.



I see you're referring to the Russian bounties. I misread what was written and thought this was referring to Trump attacking his own citizens, which most certainly happened under Obama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_...ut%20a%20trial.

Trump decided to up the ante by murdering the guy's 8 year-old daughter.





Are American lives more valuable than Iraqi lives?

Al- Awlaki assassination is being compared to a bounty on US Army troops? Good grief.




Are American lives more valuable than Iraqi lives?
To an American President? Absolutely.

[Red]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I mean I posted why literally yesterday.

I read that. So hold Biden accountable by what, voting for the guy, the one you want out?



Where is the logic here?



Biden is who he is, an old politician that has had to go to both sides 100s of times. Every bill has good and bad for both parties. You get this, but give up that etc. It's politics. Nothing new here.



If you want Trump removed, get on the Biden train. No other way around it today.



IMO, people that bash Biden this close to the election are either leaning Trump or are quite frankly, irresponsible.