Religions doing awful things

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Pretty easy answer. God doesn't interfere with free will.

A priest is just a person and commits abuse of his own free will; it has nothing to do with the Catholic God.

Oh yes, gods take credit for the good in the world, but not that bad. Make sure to pray and thank your gods for the good, but the bad is your fault, even when it is an act of god.

Many people believe in an Omnigod, that is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. That concept is not compatible with free will.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Non religious example, imagine an urban survival camp and the idiots in charge thought it would be a great idea to demonstrate tasering a kid as part of that demonstration. Kids are freaked out, total violation of health and safety, idiots defend what they did... I'd argue that camp was run by idiots rather than all urban survival camps have an indoctrination backbone that is detrimental to kids.

I would also heavily agree with the comments that there's a failure of certain disciplinary bodies to reprimand people who do that. But I wouldn't broad brush.

I think the issue taken here is two-fold. Obviously exorcism instead of medical help is abhorrent. But I doubt you would see exorcism in anything other than a religious setting/camp and arguably at the core of such camp is the indoctrination backbone.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...sings/exorcism

It would appear that this fellow was indeed following on the taught faith practice in this case. These practices were formally reapproved in the US as recently as 2014.

The bible camp in the main story is a Mennonite run facility, so I doubt they are following the directions from a Catholic source.

Either way, the idea of demon possession and exorcism is dumb, but I would at least hope that most bible camps would have staff that could at least recognize a seizure when they see one and not jump immediately to demons and an impromptu exorcism.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Sliver

The anti-Semitic one seems a bit offside.

A bit? That was ludicrous to include in line. Huge shame deserved there.

[cam_wmh]

Nm

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I think the issue taken here is two-fold. Obviously exorcism instead of medical help is abhorrent. But I doubt you would see exorcism in anything other than a religious setting/camp and arguably at the core of such camp is the indoctrination backbone.

IMO, not all religious camps nor all churches would allow exorcisms. Thereby, I wouldn't consider it the indoctrination backbone, I'd consider them fringe standing under that religion banner.

This would be akin to thinking most Buddhists at a Buddhist camp would self immolate or perform self mummification. Come on. It's fringe and abhorrent for all parties, not just the ones against that belief system. If someone's end goal is to get rid of religion long term via conversion or whatever, then unfairly vilifying those people and causing them to entrench further is one of the worst steps to take.

I don't have issues with people who have an anti-religion stance. But it's always mind boggling to me how many of those types of people can be relatively eloquent and logical to being a complete driveling idiot when the topic comes up. It's basically individuals who are arguing with an imaginary idiot and stooping down to their level and being beaten by the imaginary idiot's experience. It's bizarre.

There's a thousand ways to do it logically. Someone blowing themselves up in a self fabricated gas lighting is just... unnecessary.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Always been a proponent for practicing your beliefs and principles wherever you go, but not chaining yourself to a specific church or group. There is as much drama, guilt tripping and questionable behahiour as there is in offices/work circles.

Its when you become an integrated member of one of those communities when things start to get away from the core purposes that they were built on, because then there are expectations and people that take it way more seriously than others. You can volunteer and offer services when you want to give without committing yourself indefinitely.

Here's a good and super minor example of this.

My parents are religious. My Mom was always the much more devout of the two, but now that my Dad is approaching retirement and winding down his life, my mom shoved him into Knights of Columbus with the husbands of her church going friends. I have noticed a very disturbing trend in my father where he has absolutely latched on to this. He is frequently doing adult serving now (not super common tbh, usually a deacon or something similar fills this role.) He has become more oriented towards the catholic church but still maintains a general lack of religiousness.

I had refused to get either of my kids Baptized. While my parents didn't put up any outwards resistance to this (they know my stance and know I'd sooner just revoke their grandchild privileges than suffer this indoctrination) it greatly disturbed them. It also disturbs them whenever I address my father as Grand Wizard when he is in an alb. But, what disturbed me was that they approached my sister in advance of her wedding, and proposed that they would give her an additional $10,000 towards her wedding (specifically so she could have an open bar) IF she got her daughter baptized the following day while my extended family was still in town. So, my sister accepted that.

I don't really care about the money; my wife and I are better off and don't need it anyways. But to me it exemplified how easily they were willing to throw aside the tenants of their faith - they had to lie to the church numerous times to accomplish this as a light example - just to create more acceptance among the church community they frequent. That's a cult.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

IMO, not all religious camps nor all churches would allow exorcisms. Thereby, I wouldn't consider it the indoctrination backbone, I'd consider them fringe standing under that religion banner.

This would be akin to thinking most Buddhists at a Buddhist camp would self immolate or perform self mummification. Come on. It's fringe and abhorrent for all parties, not just the ones against that belief system. If someone's end goal is to get rid of religion long term via conversion or whatever, then unfairly vilifying those people and causing them to entrench further is one of the worst steps to take.

I don't have issues with people who have an anti-religion stance. But it's always mind boggling to me how many of those types of people can be relatively eloquent and logical to being a complete driveling idiot when the topic comes up. It's basically individuals who are arguing with an imaginary idiot and stooping down to their level and being beaten by the imaginary idiot's experience. It's bizarre.

There's a thousand ways to do it logically. Someone blowing themselves up in a self fabricated gas lighting is just... unnecessary.

No doubt the exorcism aspect is extremely dumb and fringey, no matter what the camp is about. My point about the indoctrination backbone is that it is arguable that the reason d'etre for these camps is indoctrination. Same with Sunday school, religious charter schools etc.

[Sliver]

Man, religion is just so ridiculous.

I think part of the awfulness is the fact that it doesn't value truth and reality. It doesn't value growing our understanding of anything. It reverse engineers so many things (every thing?) to make it implausibly fit an ancient narrative instead of learning and moving in the direction truth takes you.

As somebody raised areligious, I also cannot wrap my head around how religious people can't see themselves as indoctrinated. Is there a parallel in my life to help me relate to WTF is going on in the brains of religious people on that topic? Like, it's just so weird that they'll look at you dead in the eye and talk about a specific god and entire belief structure that just so happens to be the same one they were brought up with in their homes and in specific institutions whose sole purpose is to make them believe preposterous things. Then they'll hear about Scientology, Moonies, Mormons, whatever and will be all, cAn YoU bElIeVe ThE BS tHoSe GuYs BeLiEvE?!

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Man, religion is just so ridiculous.

I think part of the awfulness is the fact that it doesn't value truth and reality. It doesn't value growing our understanding of anything. It reverse engineers so many things (every thing?) to make it fit implausibly fit an ancient narrative instead of learning and moving in the direction truth takes you.

As somebody raised areligious, I also cannot wrap my head around how religious people can't see themselves as indoctrinated. Is there a parallel in my life to help me relate to WTF is going on in the brains of religious people on that topic? Like, it's just so weird that they'll look at you dead in the eye and talk about a specific god and entire belief structure that just so happens to be the same one they were brought up with in their homes and in specific institutions whose sole purpose is to make them believe preposterous things. Then they'll hear about Scientology, Moonies, Mormons, whatever and will be all, cAn YoU bElIeVe ThE BS tHoSe GuYs BeLiEvE?!

It's a fitting-in thing. If you put yourself in an echo chamber where everyone will do everything to justify that belief structure, you start to feel like the crazy one when you don't believe it. They have really developed tactics of guilt and refined them to extend beyond the confines of your own natural life too.

[flamesfever]

One of the things we learn in church is to "Honor thy father and mother". After all, most of where many of you are today are due to the hard work and sacrifice of your parents.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

A bit? That was ludicrous to include in line. Huge shame deserved there.

It's less offensive to call catholics pedophiles than it is to suggest jews are cheap? Props to Jews for simultaneously being the most privileged and oppressed group.

Now who's got the stones to go after muslims? (word play, get it?)

Try not to get too worked up about it, all the Abrahamic religions are just veiled forms of Black Cube of Saturn worship anyways. Religions for the lower classes who are unfit to participate directly in the worship but still must be bound it to.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

One of the things we learn in church is to "Honor thy father and mother". After all, most of where many of you are today are due to the hard work and sacrifice of your parents.

That's awesome if you have good parents.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Here's a good and super minor example of this.

My parents are religious. My Mom was always the much more devout of the two, but now that my Dad is approaching retirement and winding down his life, my mom shoved him into Knights of Columbus with the husbands of her church going friends. I have noticed a very disturbing trend in my father where he has absolutely latched on to this. He is frequently doing adult serving now (not super common tbh, usually a deacon or something similar fills this role.) He has become more oriented towards the catholic church but still maintains a general lack of religiousness.

I had refused to get either of my kids Baptized. While my parents didn't put up any outwards resistance to this (they know my stance and know I'd sooner just revoke their grandchild privileges than suffer this indoctrination) it greatly disturbed them. It also disturbs them whenever I address my father as Grand Wizard when he is in an alb. But, what disturbed me was that they approached my sister in advance of her wedding, and proposed that they would give her an additional $10,000 towards her wedding (specifically so she could have an open bar) IF she got her daughter baptized the following day while my extended family was still in town. So, my sister accepted that.

I don't really care about the money; my wife and I are better off and don't need it anyways. But to me it exemplified how easily they were willing to throw aside the tenants of their faith - they had to lie to the church numerous times to accomplish this as a light example - just to create more acceptance among the church community they frequent. That's a cult.

Man, that's awful. It's born from the fear of family not being in heaven with them. My wife gets it a lot from her family. But it's such a selfish thing, because they care less about another person actually being "saved" and more about the loss they may feel knowing someone they care about won't be in the same afterlife as them. When you boil it down, it's all super ridiculous, but when you have a lifetime of Sundays beating it into your head, I can see how they can be truly fearful of it. It's actually more sad than anything. And here is your family with a rift in it because of the indoctrination they have been put through.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

It's a fitting-in thing. If you put yourself in an echo chamber where everyone will do everything to justify that belief structure, you start to feel like the crazy one when you don't believe it. They have really developed tactics of guilt and refined them to extend beyond the confines of your own natural life too.

There is the positive side of fitting in. It's a basic desire to want to feel part of a family/tribe/community. Churches I was in overtly recognized this and used it in their efforts to grow the congregation.

The formula of presenting a strong family with lots of support, unconditional love from believers, music, a powerful sermon by a skilled orator to encourage you to face your problems or loneliness or whatever, then a salvation call to come transform your life with a few simple words.. it can be very powerful and appealing.

And most of the churches I was in definitely did follow through on the support and inclusion (well as long as you didn't colour too far outside the lines), that's one aspect of church life that I miss.. the feeling of having an extended family; a pre-built social and support network.

To what degree it was manipulative and to what degree it was honest people trying to be good to each other and support each other likely varies from person to person, but there was good there at least in the churches I went to.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't think it's that much of stretch. Religious people are probably more likely to have family orientated lives and less likely to be alcoholics or use drugs. They're probably also more likely to settle into a family orientated lifestyle earlier, which means spending less money on doing fewer high risk activities into their late 20s and thirties.

I don't know about that, everyone I know who was diddled by a priest, beaten by a nun or raped by a residential school teacher has had significant alcohol or drug issues, of course you're just counting the successful outcomes, not the vast string of broken shame filled humans that trail in the churches wake

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

that's one aspect of church life that I miss.. the feeling of having an extended family; a pre-built social and support network.

To what degree it was manipulative and to what degree it was honest people trying to be good to each other and support each other likely varies from person to person, but there was good there at least in the churches I went to.

That was definitely a beautiful thing with a dark side to it, unfortunately, the benefits of that support network when based on illogical fallacies and fabrications was not a cognitive dissonance I could live with.

In many respects, I have never replaced that community and feeling of family again but I am still much happier for it knowing where I stand and not questioning every Sunday.

Manipulations or "awful things" are likely more the exception than the rule in most religious organizations - of which most folks are kind-hearted and earnest in their devotion and selflessness to each other. The horror stories from religion are not what drove me out - living with innocuous daily lies and fairy tales that made no sense is what did it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

One of the things we learn in church is to "Honor thy father and mother". After all, most of where many of you are today are due to the hard work and sacrifice of your parents.

You clearly have never met my dad, to be honest its something of a miracle I have

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I don't know about that, everyone I know who was diddled by a priest, beaten by a nun or raped by a residential school teacher has had significant alcohol or drug issues

No doubt. That's an awful experience. Still a minority of people who are religious get abused. Lots of people who aren't religious get abused too.

Once again, the solution here is just to enforce laws. Giving members of a religious organization a pass on being criminally responsible, merely because they are members of a religious organization, is absurd. Enforcement of laws would also include going after people who are adding and abiding the perpetrators by, for example, covering up their crimes or putting them in situations where they are likely to continue committing crimes.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

No doubt. That's an awful experience. Still a minority of people who are religious get abused. Lots of people who aren't religious get abused too.

Once again, the solution here is just to enforce laws. Giving members of a religious organization a pass on being criminally responsible, merely because they are members of a religious organization, is absurd. Enforcement of laws would also include going after people who are adding and abiding the perpetrators by, for example, covering up their crimes or putting them in situations where they are likely to continue committing crimes.

No it was not a minority, the vast majority of natives that came into contact with the church suffered abuse, millions of people over 400 years