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Old 08-07-2020, 10:39 AM   #2001
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It doesn’t matter who you support if your take is that your infallible leader is to be followed without question and anyone with the temerity to not do so is to be attacked you have bigger problems than a bad president. If that’s the mentality it sounds like a theocracy might be more your speed.

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Old 08-07-2020, 10:45 AM   #2002
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It doesn’t matter who you support if your take is that your infallible leader is to be followed without question and anyone with the temerity to not do so is to be attacked you have bigger problems than a bad president. If that’s the mentality it sounds like a theocracy might be more your speed.

Not sure if that's a response to me, but if it is then that's quite a leap there.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:46 AM   #2003
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Al- Awlaki assassination is being compared to a bounty on US Army troops? Good grief.
Um, nope, that's not what I said. Your reading comprehension needs some work

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Are American lives more valuable than Iraqi lives? To an American President? Absolutely.
I mean this is part of the problem. So mishandling a virus that kills 150k, Americans (but would have probably killed at least 50k), is somehow less reprehensible than lying to deliberately start a war that killed millions of people and destabilized an entire region for decades because at least those people weren't Americans?
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:58 AM   #2004
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Um, nope, that's not what I said. Your reading comprehension needs some work



I mean this is part of the problem. So mishandling a virus that kills 150k, Americans (but would have probably killed at least 50k), is somehow less reprehensible than lying to deliberately start a war that killed millions of people and destabilized an entire region for decades because at least those people weren't Americans?

My reading comprehension is just fine. Stop moving posts and tell me where Obama was putting bounties on american troops. You posted a wiki about a Yemeni/American terrorist getting bombed on Obama's order.



More reprehensible, not less. (reading comprehension problems?) To Americans that should be more reprehensible. American lives are the first priority of a POTUS.



Again, I am not in any way in favor of the war. But we are talking about who the worst president was and one that was responsible for the most US citizens deaths has a leg up on others.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:13 AM   #2005
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Let's start with Gaddafi. He was not assassinated by Obama. He was murdered by his own people during the uprising.

Reagan certainly tried to kill him.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:16 AM   #2006
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Reagan certainly tried to kill him.

Rube said it was Obama.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:23 AM   #2007
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My reading comprehension is just fine. Stop moving posts and tell me where Obama was putting bounties on american troops. You posted a wiki about a Yemeni/American terrorist getting bombed on Obama's order.
Here is my direct quote.

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I see you're referring to the Russian bounties. I misread what was written and thought this was referring to Trump attacking his own citizens, which most certainly happened under Obama.
That's not called moving the goal posts. It's admitting I misinterpreted the subject. Do you know what moving the goal posts is?

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More reprehensible, not less. (reading comprehension problems?) To Americans that should be more reprehensible. American lives are the first priority of a POTUS.

Again, I am not in any way in favor of the war. But we are talking about who the worst president was and one that was responsible for the most US citizens deaths has a leg up on others.
That's a pretty morally repugnant viewpoint to have, IMO. Murder is murder, and this wasn't some choice Bush made where killing Iraqis was done to prevent the deaths of Americans.

This also wasn't some accidental outcome that could be attributed to Bush's negligence (we have Katrina and 9/11 for that). This was a deliberate and illegal action where the outcome was well known.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:29 AM   #2008
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Rube said it was Obama.
Dude, you just can't let #### go, eh? Even when people admit they were wrong/made a mistake. Kind of petty and ridiculous. Maybe go outside?
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:41 AM   #2009
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Can you imagine how Trump would have dealt with Vietnam and the Cold War?
I thanked your post, mostly for the corrections on Bush43 and his administration. If it were not for Trump we would still be looking back at that group as the worst and most criminal administration is existence.

Now, to some of the other stuff. so much wrong.

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Putting Refugees in cages. - Began under Obama
"Putting refugees in cages" is such an over simplification and bad spin of what happened under the Obama administration. At the time temporary holding locations were established that used the chain link fencing, only because there was not enough space in fed facilities. That was quickly addressed and the practice all but eliminated. At no time did the Obama administration use the inhumane practices that the Trump administration has with the "cages." Just an absolute horrible false equivalency.

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Implicitly endorsing chinese concentration camps - FDR built literal concentration camps for Japanese Americans in the 40s
Another horrible contrast and comparison. FDR did what was deemed acceptable at the time, something that over time has obviously changed. It was also a response to an attack on American soil during a world war, but why would context like that matter? I mean, Trump contemporaneously endorsing a practice of subjugation of another nations people, at a time of peace, is clearly the same thing. Because it happened before Trump gets the pass. Amiright?

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Turning a blind eye to hit orders against his own citizens - Also occurred under Obama
Yup, this was bad, and Obama got roasted for it. But this was an enemy combatant who was essentially working against the United States and killing other Americans in a military role. Context is much different, wouldn't you say? Obama never took out an America citizen on America soil.

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Ordering his own military to take actions against his own citizens - Kent State happened under Nixon
Kent State was the National Guard.

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Re-envigorating the death penalty.......- Has happened under literally every Republican president since Reagan
Death penalty is actually a States Rights issue.

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Assasinatiing World Leaders to prove a point.- As opposed to when Ghadafi was assassinated by Obama?
Ghadafi was murdered by his own people.

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Dropping big bombs on airports because they have a cool name.- How many children's hospitals did he bomb? (Clinton)
Wow. That's an ignorant statement. Full. Stop. Clinton was never involved in active targeting during any of the peace keeping activities. Yes, he gave an approval for engagements, but was not active in the day-to-day targeting or sorties flown. Trump openly bragged about his involvement. Does context matter? I mean, JFC, get a grip with the false equivalencies.

I'm beginning to think that your wardrobe consists predominantly of hoodies, t-shirts, skinny jeans, and Chuck Taylors, all in a common shade of black.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:52 AM   #2010
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I generally agree with most of what you wrote. However, the real danger of Trump and what makes him the potential worst President ever is not the monster he is himself but rather the monster he emboldens or even creates. Trump is all about Trump. He will do whatever is good for him. If it helps Americans that's a bonus. If it helps Americans and the World, that's an even bigger bonus. If it hurts America and/or the World, too bad. He simply doesn't care about other human beings.
But this has been the trajectory of American politics (and particularly the Republican party) for decades. The cult of personality #### has been going for years. The white supremacy has been thinly-veiled but no less potent. Trump was the culmination of what the dorks on the alt+right have been pushing for years. If it wasn't Trump, it would have been someone else. He just represented the best vessel for it.

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Trump hasn't started any wars, hasn't been responsible for mass atrocities, political coups or even the genocides of past Presidents. What he is responsible for is the rise of fascism and authoritarianism in America and around the World. Russia, China, Turkey, Brazil, Iran, North Korea and others have been emboldened by Trump whereas, even with a Neo-Con as President, they would have at least been given some pause.
I think that's exaggerated. The rising tide of right-wing populism/nationalism and proto-fascism around the globe had been well-documented prior to Trump's election Putin, Xi, and Erdogan were well-entrenched and enacting authoritarian policies well before Trump came to power. North Korea and Iran were generally rough states who are realists in the IR sphere.

Brazil has flirted off and on with authoritarian right-wing governments since the 60s and Duterte in the Philippines was elected six months before Trump came to power.

The presidency is obviously the most prestigious office in the world, and having someone who share the worldviews of these leaders could potentially have a legitimizing effect on some of those leaders, but I think we tend to overstate the influence of U.S. domestic politics in the domestic politics of other nations (exceptions being when the U.S. directly involves itself in those politics).

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That's why it's so important to get rid of Trump and defeat Trumpism as quickly as possible before the roots get even deeper and more tangled.
I agree with this but Trump is the dandelion at the end of the weed. Lopping off the head does nothing to fix the problem. You need to tear the roots out, and the roots.

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We need to be all-in on Biden now as enthusiastically as we can muster. When he's in office, then he should be held accountable.
Except history shows us this isn't what happens. It's more likely that criticism of Biden will get deflected with whataboutisms related to Trump, or deemed as they are now as "helping the Republicans" and not being a team players.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:09 PM   #2011
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Dude, you just can't let #### go, eh? Even when people admit they were wrong/made a mistake. Kind of petty and ridiculous. Maybe go outside?

My response to him was a silly way of getting Ped on subject, but I can see why it could be seen as a petty post. Should have gone with this instead. Sorry.



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Old 08-07-2020, 12:11 PM   #2012
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I thanked your post, mostly for the corrections on Bush43 and his administration. If it were not for Trump we would still be looking back at that group as the worst and most criminal administration is existence.

Now, to some of the other stuff. so much wrong.
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"Putting refugees in cages" is such an over simplification and bad spin of what happened under the Obama administration. At the time temporary holding locations were established that used the chain link fencing, only because there was not enough space in fed facilities. That was quickly addressed and the practice all but eliminated. At no time did the Obama administration use the inhumane practices that the Trump administration has with the "cages." Just an absolute horrible false equivalency.
I guess I should have noted that I wasn't trying to say it was equivalent, just that the genesis began there. Hell, ICE was created back in 2003 and has always been a pretty garbage organization. My point was more that many of Trump's actions were him capitalizing on the groundwork laid by previous administrations.

I think one of the more telling admissions lately was Barbara Boxer saying she never would have voted in favour of creating the DHS if she had been able to envision its abuse against U.S. citizens, as if there's zero historical precedent for the U.S. taking egregious authoritarian actions against its citizens. Authoritarian policies are almost the Chekhov's Gun of U.S. history.

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Another horrible contrast and comparison. FDR did what was deemed acceptable at the time, something that over time has obviously changed. It was also a response to an attack on American soil during a world war, but why would context like that matter?
It was still horrible, racist policy and it's not unreasonable to think that maybe clearer minds should have prevailed. Canada deserves the same amount of criticism for doing the same ####.

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Trump contemporaneously endorsing a practice of subjugation of another nations people, at a time of peace, is clearly the same thing. Because it happened before Trump gets the pass. Amiright?
Where have I given Trump a pass on any of this? I've repeatedly said that Trump is a monster. My issue is with people treating the defeat of a Trump as return to the Garden of Eden. Trump represents the worst impulses of every American administration but he's still a product of those administrations, and removing him alone doesn't end the slide to authoritarianism that we've witnessed since at least the Bush years.

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Yup, this was bad, and Obama got roasted for it. But this was an enemy combatant who was essentially working against the United States and killing other Americans in a military role. Context is much different, wouldn't you say? Obama never took out an America citizen on America soil.
There's a pretty good argument to be made that there still should have been due process, but I don't think you and I are in disagreement here.

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Kent State was the National Guard.
If we're going to play the semantics game, it's the DHS in Portland and not the military.

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Death penalty is actually a States Rights issue.
I'm not the one who brought it up on a federal level. My point was that every Republican president has been a fervent supporter of it.

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Ghadafi was murdered by his own people.
Yeah, I walked that back. The Libya involvement was still as massive fiasco.

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Wow. That's an ignorant statement. Full. Stop. Clinton was never involved in active targeting during any of the peace keeping activities.
It's not exactly fringe thinking that theorizes that Clinton's 1998 bombing of a pharmaceutical plant in Iraq was intentionally done to distract from the Lewisnky testimony. But I was wrong in that it wasn't a children's hospital. The U.S. has bombed a lot of ####. It's easy to get them confused.

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I'm beginning to think that your wardrobe consists predominantly of hoodies, t-shirts, skinny jeans, and Chuck Taylors, all in a common shade of black.
I'm more of a pastel-blue guy and my feet are way too flat and wide for Chucks.

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Old 08-07-2020, 12:20 PM   #2013
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I would just like to come out in defence of a t-shirt, jeans, and chucks. It's a good look and anyone that doesn't think so is jealous they can't pull it off.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:21 PM   #2014
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The solution though is for the left to back Biden unquestioningly at the federal level, back hard left candidates in safe house and senate seats, back middle candidates in contested seats.

Then when Biden is elected protest with the same level of effort and enthusiasm as is going on with BLM and went on with things like the women’s march. If the left stops pushing after a centrist is elected that is on the left.

Until Trump is gone he is the problem. Once Trump is gone the.ln you keep pushing the centrist left.

The tea party republicans would never not vote for a too left republican.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:25 PM   #2015
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I would just like to come out in defence of a t-shirt, jeans, and chucks. It's a good look and anyone that doesn't think so is jealous they can't pull it off.
I'm just impressed that in the last two days alone I've gone from being a "Bernie Bro," to a Republican, to Antifa.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:28 PM   #2016
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I'm just impressed that in the last two days alone I've gone from being a "Bernie Bro," to a Republican, to Antifa.

At least you're flexible.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:35 PM   #2017
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My issue is with people treating the defeat of a Trump as return to the Garden of Eden.
I’ve been following this thread pretty regularly, you’ve made this claim several times but I can’t find the posts this refers to. Who has been doing this?
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:38 PM   #2018
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I’ve been following this thread pretty regularly, you’ve made this claim several times but I can’t find the posts this refers to. Who has been doing this?
I'm not sure if it's specific to anyone in this thread (maybe the dude from Virginia?) but it's definitely the rallying cry of the Biden campaign and many DNC talking heads.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:50 PM   #2019
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I’ve been following this thread pretty regularly, you’ve made this claim several times but I can’t find the posts this refers to. Who has been doing this?
To be fair, it's not a lot different than any argument directed at rube for not blindly supporting Biden, which I'm fully guilty of.

It's less about specific posters in a thread, as for those that don't have connections to the US what they think doesn't entirely matter (for the record I have strong connections to the US, but don't vote in their elections, so what I think also doesn't entirely matter). It's more about certain points of view being connected to general sentiments or trends.

When rube argues against people treating Biden like a saviour, I think he's doing it in a broad sense and not specific to any posters, just as when I remark the danger of being over-critical of Biden at this stage, I'm doing it in a broad sense, as I don't think there's any danger coming from anyone on CP.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:10 PM   #2020
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To be fair, it's not a lot different than any argument directed at rube for not blindly supporting Biden, which I'm fully guilty of.

It's less about specific posters in a thread, as for those that don't have connections to the US what they think doesn't entirely matter (for the record I have strong connections to the US, but don't vote in their elections, so what I think also doesn't entirely matter). It's more about certain points of view being connected to general sentiments or trends.

When rube argues against people treating Biden like a saviour, I think he's doing it in a broad sense and not specific to any posters, just as when I remark the danger of being over-critical of Biden at this stage, I'm doing it in a broad sense, as I don't think there's any danger coming from anyone on CP.
I would disagree with you to a degree, I used to ignore the loons that pop up on my facebook feed and sites like CP but the election of Trump, the rise of Palin, the anti vax and 9/11 was a hoax movements made it clear that the numpty posters promoting ludicrous conspiracy's or extreme political views I generally laugh at on social media are actually doing massive harm to democracy by the shear quantity and unrelenting volume of their posts.

There are several million 'Rubes' out there constantly going on about Clinton Biden, 'the establishment' in general and that's why Trump was elected
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