After Sven, which prospect are you most optimistic for?

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

All this aside, it would appear that Danny Taylor seems to be the go-to guy down in Abby anyways, which isn't giving Irving many reps. There seems to be a problem in terms of logjam in net in Abby where guys are getting the playing time cause they got the hot hand leaving some guys who were higher in the plans (Irving, Ortio) not getting the ice time on the team. But maybe, having too many goalies could be a good thing down the road.

tonight was Taylor's first game this month. Brust and Irving got starts last weekend. Taylors starts are skewed a bit because he started the first 3 games, but since then Brust and Irving have started 2 each and Taylor 3.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

tonight was Taylor's first game this month. Brust and Irving got starts last weekend. Taylors starts are skewed a bit because he started the first 3 games, but since then Brust and Irving have started 2 each and Taylor 3.

I'm pretty sure Ward singled Taylor out as being his #1 netminder for the time being. Irving and Brust have to beat him out in practice to win starts or Taylor has to falter.

Cowtown : They may have called Irving up last year, but I bet they would've called Taylor if he had a 2-way. I don't think Irving is ranked as highly in the organization as he once was.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by thymebalm

I'm pretty sure Ward singled Taylor out as being his #1 netminder for the time being. Irving and Brust have to beat him out in practice to win starts or Taylor has to falter.

Cowtown : They may have called Irving up last year, but I bet they would've called Taylor if he had a 2-way. I don't think Irving is ranked as highly in the organization as he once was.

Irving was doing very well prior to his callup. I don't think the org would've called Taylor up nor is that even realistic since we had no contracts to spend on him. I think Taylor's real emergence happened with Irving in Calgary did it not? If the organization really sees Taylor ahead of Irving then I think they would've found a way to ink Taylor. Until they do sign Taylor speculating that Taylor is ahead of Irving for an NHL chance seems unrealistic.

Reminds me of the discussion around Steve McCarthy being a lock to make the Flames. I think sometimes people overrate good stints in the minors. If Taylor keeps it up, Irving falters and the Flames end up signing Taylor to an NHL deal at some point then I think we can talk about him having better NHL chances. Until then I think Irving has shown good but sometimes inconsistent play in the AHL and good play in the NHL and has the benefit of the doubt over Taylor for NHL chances.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

Good job at making some obvious points. Of course I don't now where Kipper was at in his development at age 20- do you ? as for Ortio, I have seen him play enough that PERSONALLY, I wasn't so excited. Yes, I know he is only 21 and there are gonna be ups and downs- but as I stated in my post, these things can take time. I had no clue who Kipper was, or was capable of, until we traded for him. As for Ortio, yes, this year he is putting up some decent stats, which is great, but I think his previous stats are not brilliant or anything. I hope he turns out to be a good goalie for us- but he needs to be in NA playing a NA game that hopefully he will one day play. It's great that he is a starter and getting the reps right now, but, it's in Finland. Stats can also be indicative of not just the goalie himself, but team play and competition, more obvious stuff.

All I am saying is that I am no where near being excited about this guy but I hope he proves me wrong. I think he goes down too fast, I think his rebound control is lacking, as well as his positioning and footwork. Hopefully, he will get much better in these areas and the Flames find the appropriate time to give him some reps here in NA- and until they do, I feel as though his development will be stunted always playing in Finland. Maybe that's why Kipper bloomed so late- and maybe that's why he is the great goalie he is today, because he found a team in the Flames that gave him the opportunity to get the reps here in NA and in the NHL.

I was responding to your post saying, >>I think when we drafted him, we were looking for the next Finnish " Kipper". That was a flop and the guy seems average at "best">> so it kind of sounded like you needed to be reminded of some obvious facts about the two goalies.

You talk a tremendous amount of nonsense. A waste of time.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by cowtown75

I feel as though his development will be stunted always playing in Finland. Maybe that's why Kipper bloomed so late- and maybe that's why he is the great goalie he is today, because he found a team in the Flames that gave him the opportunity to get the reps here in NA and in the NHL.

Kipper stayed in Finland for 4 years after being drafted and it doesn't appear that stunted his development. Niklas Backstrom played 10 years in Finland before jumping straight into the NHL and that obviously didn't stunt his development, in fact he exclusively developed there.

So your point about his development being stunted and trying to compare his development to Kiprusoff seems completely non-sensical. Guess what? Most goalies look bad at times at that age and most goalies don't become solid NHLers til their mid-20's. Lots of time for Ortio to polish his game.

[Henry Fool]

Kipper played both in Finland and Sweden. The most important thing is to have a safe environment where you can work on your game and get enough starts. It could be AHL, too, if the conditions are right, but there are no guarantees that you get the kind of attention and opportunities there that you get back home. I feel that for a young goalie, it can be better to avoid the culture shock too early, but each case is different and each AHL team is different.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

Kipper played both in Finland and Sweden. The most important thing is to have a safe environment where you can work on your game and get enough starts. It could be AHL, too, if the conditions are right, but there are no guarantees that you get the kind of attention and opportunities there that you get back home. I feel that for a young goalie, it can be better to avoid the culture shock too early, but each case is different and each AHL team is different.

Kiprusoff is also an example of why we can't give up on Irving either. Kipper didn't make his NHL debut until he was 25, a season where he only saw 5 games and he never became an NHL starter until he was 28 and traded to Calgary. Irving made his NHL debut at a younger age (2 years younger) and also put up a higher save percentage. It simply too early to give up him.

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Kiprusoff is also an example of why we can't give up on Irving either. Kipper didn't make his NHL debut until he was 25, a season where he only saw 5 games and he never became an NHL starter until he was 28 and traded to Calgary. Irving made his NHL debut at a younger age (2 years younger) and also put up a higher save percentage. It simply too early to give up him.

Irving should still be the number one choice after Kipper in Calgary. I don't see how one month in the AHL would change that.

Ortio was 6th round pick. It's easy to bet against a low pick because you'll be right 90% of the time no matter how poorly informed you are. But some of them become Kiprusoff or Rinne, so if you trust that you drafted someone with raw talent, it's best to stay as patient as possible.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Kiprusoff is also an example of why we can't give up on Irving either. Kipper didn't make his NHL debut until he was 25, a season where he only saw 5 games and he never became an NHL starter until he was 28 and traded to Calgary. Irving made his NHL debut at a younger age (2 years younger) and also put up a higher save percentage. It simply too early to give up him.

Brossoit, Ortio, Gillies - 3 goalies with a lot of potential.

Taylor and Brust come in - 2 "AHL Journeymen" - and they at least look as effective as Irving in net - and Taylor is not much older at all than Irving if memory serves.

At the end of the day, it is not poor asset management if Irving leaves. It isn't 'misusing' a prospect either. Irving has been given LOADS of time to 'establish' himself as a future NHL starter. He goes through periods where he definitely shows that, but he also goes through periods of inconsistencies. Yes, he is young, and being inconsistent is part of the 'growing pains' with goalies. However, at some point, he has to get there. How long do you wait?

I really believe this is his last 'opportunity' to be in a position to really showcase himself as a capable NHL starter of the future. He will leave as a free agent after this season, and either go play in Europe for a year or two, or find another NHL team short on goalie prospects and willing to either use him as a backup (doubtful with the amount of experience he has) or be the starter of their AHL franchise. I am not sure how easy that will be for him. I have no idea what his trade value would be like at the moment, and really depends on how many teams are really short on goalie prospects.

To put it into perspective, which goalie is tearing up the AHL right now? 0.949 sv%. 1.48 goals against.

Curtis 'McBackup'. He may end up being a pretty decent goalie at the NHL level. However, nobody was 'crying' when the Flames decided to part ways with him.

At some point, either a goalie takes charge and grabs that spot, or he doesn't. If Irving is going to be the Flames' future starter, he will either grab it this season (starting in the AHL), or he won't and move on to try his luck elsewhere. He will never get as good of a 'chance' on another team, however, as the Flames are more willing to ride out their 1st round pick + development years in trying to get him there. At the end, however, it is 100% up to Irving. He either is, or he isn't. He either does it, or he doesn't. He either allows Taylor to surpass him, or he relegates Taylor into backup role in the AHL for now. It is 100% on Irving at this point, and this is probably his last season in the Flames' org if he doesn't.