Let's talk about Cryptocurrencies

[Azure]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I dont need an expert, I just need someone, you for instance, to tell me why bitcoin is better or does something ordinary money doesnt or cant do, that's the part I dont understand, it just looks like some high tech version of the Gold Standard, and the people that call for a return to Gold are bat #### crazy

You don't understand because you aren't actually going out there and listening to many of the experts on the subject.

I've been skeptical about BTC for a long time as well, but I do support a decentralized currency that gives the US less power to dominate the world with the dollar.

There are many reasons for and and against BTC, but its pointless having a discussion with someone who is instantly dismissive out of the gate.

[dobbles]

The point you guys are missing is that we are trying to have a discussion as THIS community. I posted what I think are relevant questions yesterday and got crickets. I have asked them before and as memory serves I received the same then. And I ask here for the same reason that I also asked for advice on switch games and ceiling fans yesterday; because I like the level of discussion here and hearing from people I have long conversed with and trust. Could I go watch a video on fan wiring? Sure. Could I google the best switch games instead of asking here? Sure.

We have many posters in this thread that have long been pushing bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Which is fine. And as dino stated a lot of his bragging is just busting balls, which is also fine. I can't speak for afc, but I feel like he is asking a lot of similar questions as I am. I have nothing against bitcoin. I really don't. I just have yet to hear anyone make a compelling case for its wide spread use or extremely high valuation.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Azure

I've been skeptical about BTC for a long time as well, but I do support a decentralized currency that gives the US less power to dominate the world with the dollar.

Interesting timing, as just yesterday I read this really well done report on how the USD as a reserve currency is potentially already coming apart.
https://www.lynalden.com/fraying-petrodollar-system/

It's a really long read, but she gives a great history lesson on past monetary systems, why the current USD-based one is a problem for both the US and the world, and some thoughts on what may replace it.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Azure

You don't understand because you aren't actually going out there and listening to many of the experts on the subject.

I've been skeptical about BTC for a long time as well, but I do support a decentralized currency that gives the US less power to dominate the world with the dollar.

There are many reasons for and and against BTC, but its pointless having a discussion with someone who is instantly dismissive out of the gate.

philosophically I agree with you, I also think the world would be immeasurably better if we rode bicycles instead of driving cars but that isnt a practical reason for me to move my savings out of Ford and BP and into Trek and Shimano, if oil goes to 1,000 dollars a barrel though that is, that's what I'm trying to find.

[karl262]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Thanks, same basic principle though, you wouldnt dare put a large sum of money in a holding account if you couldnt be sure that in a few months roughly the same amount of money was still there, its why people in the third world were their own countries currancy is wildly unstable use the US dollar, because its value is very stable

What can BTC do better than CAD?

Help people in the undeveloped and developing world.

If you hire someone from such a country its not easy to get them paid and there's a chance their nations banking system is less than perfect. This is very common. You said that yourself.

That person might not have bothered undertaking everything it took to get that contract if they have little to no faith in getting paid.


Edit:
https://www.reuters.com/article/cryp...-idUSL4N2FR31Q

"Four months ago, Abolaji Odunjo made a fundamental change to his business selling mobile phones in a bustling street market in Lagos: He started paying his suppliers in bitcoin.
Odunjo sources handsets and accessories from China and the United Arab Emirates. His Chinese suppliers asked to be paid in the cryptocurrency, he said, for speed and convenience.
The shift has boosted his profits, as he no longer has to buy dollars using the Nigerian naira or shell out fees to money-transfer firms. It is also one example of how, in Africa, bitcoin - the original and biggest cryptocurrency - is finding the practical use that it has largely failed to elsewhere.
"Bitcoin helped to protect my business against the currency devaluation, and enabled me to grow at the same time," Odunjo told Reuters from his two-by-eight metre shop."


But its all just for guns, drugs and hookers apparently.

[Azure]

Again, a hedge against the US dollar is a good thing because it decentralizes the power structure.

For a long period of time the only use for BTC was guns, drugs and hookers, and I was as skeptical as the next guy about any legitimate future use.

However, there seems to be a more serious push to accept it by financial institutions, and we are seeing many examples of how it can be used as a massive benefit.

Our existing financial system is absolutely setup to benefit the rich and powerful, and BTC is a push against that. Therefore I support it and hope it is massively successful.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by karl262

What can BTC do better than CAD?

Help people in the undeveloped and developing world.

If you hire someone from such a country its not easy to get them paid and there's a chance their nations banking system is less than perfect. This is very common. You said that yourself.

That person might not have bothered undertaking everything it took to get that contract if they have little to no faith in getting paid.


Edit:
https://www.reuters.com/article/cryp...-idUSL4N2FR31Q

"Four months ago, Abolaji Odunjo made a fundamental change to his business selling mobile phones in a bustling street market in Lagos: He started paying his suppliers in bitcoin.
Odunjo sources handsets and accessories from China and the United Arab Emirates. His Chinese suppliers asked to be paid in the cryptocurrency, he said, for speed and convenience.
The shift has boosted his profits, as he no longer has to buy dollars using the Nigerian naira or shell out fees to money-transfer firms. It is also one example of how, in Africa, bitcoin - the original and biggest cryptocurrency - is finding the practical use that it has largely failed to elsewhere.
"Bitcoin helped to protect my business against the currency devaluation, and enabled me to grow at the same time," Odunjo told Reuters from his two-by-eight metre shop."


But its all just for guns, drugs and hookers apparently.

This is so far the only use for bitcoin that makes any sense that I have seen (well other than the hookers and blow)

[Jason14h]

Ask any small business owner the cost of accepting CCs. Blockchain has the ability to massively reduce the cost of transactions

[karl262]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

This is so far the only use for bitcoin that makes any sense that I have seen (well other than the hookers and blow)

I think Africa is where we'll first see widespread adoption, everywhere else will follow their lead. It solves so many problems.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk

[jammies]

Bitcoin cannot be suited to being both a store of value AND a currency. A currency circulates to facilitate the exchange of good and services as an abstraction of common value, sitting untouched in exchange accounts it cannot do that - currency's purpose lies in being constantly *used*. Conversely, stores of value do not freely circulate, they are held for long periods of time to appreciate in, or hold, worth. It is *store* of value, the purpose is right in the name, and thus does not constantly move around.

That isn't to say you can't use currency to store value, but that isn't the same thing - currency doesn't appreciate nor hold worth over time, because inflation erodes that value and it is worth less tomorrow than it is today. You can ameliorate that effect by letting someone else (like a bank) use your money for you and give you a cut of the profits they make from it by circulating it out as loans, capital, or investments, but this illustrates a fundamental difference between a store of value and merely storing value - a store of value can sit there utterly static and still appreciate in worth (at least, a well-chosen one does).

Which leads us back to bitcoin. Its design is to be deflationary, as there will only ever be a set number of bitcoins, which one day (and relatively soon) will be attained. You simply can't print more bitcoins, even if you need or want to. Which is why it is not suited to use as a currency, it has the properties of a store of value - unique and irreproducible units - and the two purposes work against each other.

Like anything else people agree has value, you *can* use it as currency, but that doesn't make it a good currency, just as stuffing cash in your mattress doesn't make that mattress a good store of value. Buying a pizza with bitcoin is like buying a pizza with gold, you're using up a store of value to obtain a transient good, which only makes sense if you can't use a more suitable currency to do it with. It is currency only of desperation.

This is but one of my objections to the hype around bitcoin, many of its proponents clearly do not understand that boosting it as both investment and currency shows a lack of basic understanding of the dynamics between those two ideas. That it was designed the way it is with the idea that it would replace fiat currency shows that its creators didn't understand those dynamics either. Although the more cynical view is that they knew full well that it would never work as currency, but pitching it as an entirely artificial new store of value with no other utility wasn't as effective a marketing campaign.

Lastly, if you understand a concept well, you don't need to tell others to look into what the experts say about it, you can explain it yourself. If you can't, you've been evangelized, not convinced, and your opinion is essentially "ask someone who actually knows what they are talking about".

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jammies

Bitcoin cannot be suited to being both a store of value AND a currency. A currency circulates to facilitate the exchange of good and services as an abstraction of common value, sitting untouched in exchange accounts it cannot do that - currency's purpose lies in being constantly *used*. Conversely, stores of value do not freely circulate, they are held for long periods of time to appreciate in, or hold, worth. It is *store* of value, the purpose is right in the name, and thus does not constantly move around.

That isn't to say you can't use currency to store value, but that isn't the same thing - currency doesn't appreciate nor hold worth over time, because inflation erodes that value and it is worth less tomorrow than it is today. You can ameliorate that effect by letting someone else (like a bank) use your money for you and give you a cut of the profits they make from it by circulating it out as loans, capital, or investments, but this illustrates a fundamental difference between a store of value and merely storing value - a store of value can sit there utterly static and still appreciate in worth (at least, a well-chosen one does).

Which leads us back to bitcoin. Its design is to be deflationary, as there will only ever be a set number of bitcoins, which one day (and relatively soon) will be attained. You simply can't print more bitcoins, even if you need or want to. Which is why it is not suited to use as a currency, it has the properties of a store of value - unique and irreproducible units - and the two purposes work against each other.

Like anything else people agree has value, you *can* use it as currency, but that doesn't make it a good currency, just as stuffing cash in your mattress doesn't make that mattress a good store of value. Buying a pizza with bitcoin is like buying a pizza with gold, you're using up a store of value to obtain a transient good, which only makes sense if you can't use a more suitable currency to do it with. It is currency only of desperation.

This is but one of my objections to the hype around bitcoin, many of its proponents clearly do not understand that boosting it as both investment and currency shows a lack of basic understanding of the dynamics between those two ideas. That it was designed the way it is with the idea that it would replace fiat currency shows that its creators didn't understand those dynamics either. Although the more cynical view is that they knew full well that it would never work as currency, but pitching it as an entirely artificial new store of value with no other utility wasn't as effective a marketing campaign.

Lastly, if you understand a concept well, you don't need to tell others to look into what the experts say about it, you can explain it yourself. If you can't, you've been evangelized, not convinced, and your opinion is essentially "ask someone who actually knows what they are talking about".

Which leads me to believe that at some point if bitcoin does appear to have a practical use someone, some government or extra government body like the IMF, will create a digital currency that does everything bit coin does but is stable and increases in 'volume' to match economic value as it increases

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jammies

Bitcoin cannot be suited to being both a store of value AND a currency. A currency circulates to facilitate the exchange of good and services as an abstraction of common value, sitting untouched in exchange accounts it cannot do that - currency's purpose lies in being constantly *used*. Conversely, stores of value do not freely circulate, they are held for long periods of time to appreciate in, or hold, worth. It is *store* of value, the purpose is right in the name, and thus does not constantly move around.

That isn't to say you can't use currency to store value, but that isn't the same thing - currency doesn't appreciate nor hold worth over time, because inflation erodes that value and it is worth less tomorrow than it is today. You can ameliorate that effect by letting someone else (like a bank) use your money for you and give you a cut of the profits they make from it by circulating it out as loans, capital, or investments, but this illustrates a fundamental difference between a store of value and merely storing value - a store of value can sit there utterly static and still appreciate in worth (at least, a well-chosen one does).

Which leads us back to bitcoin. Its design is to be deflationary, as there will only ever be a set number of bitcoins, which one day (and relatively soon) will be attained. You simply can't print more bitcoins, even if you need or want to. Which is why it is not suited to use as a currency, it has the properties of a store of value - unique and irreproducible units - and the two purposes work against each other.

Like anything else people agree has value, you *can* use it as currency, but that doesn't make it a good currency, just as stuffing cash in your mattress doesn't make that mattress a good store of value. Buying a pizza with bitcoin is like buying a pizza with gold, you're using up a store of value to obtain a transient good, which only makes sense if you can't use a more suitable currency to do it with. It is currency only of desperation.

This is but one of my objections to the hype around bitcoin, many of its proponents clearly do not understand that boosting it as both investment and currency shows a lack of basic understanding of the dynamics between those two ideas. That it was designed the way it is with the idea that it would replace fiat currency shows that its creators didn't understand those dynamics either. Although the more cynical view is that they knew full well that it would never work as currency, but pitching it as an entirely artificial new store of value with no other utility wasn't as effective a marketing campaign.

Lastly, if you understand a concept well, you don't need to tell others to look into what the experts say about it, you can explain it yourself. If you can't, you've been evangelized, not convinced, and your opinion is essentially "ask someone who actually knows what they are talking about".

I tend to think bitcoin's creator/s are just a modern iteration of the gold standard crowd rather than straight up shysty, the idea of a finite currency supply is superficially very attractive, it of course isnt really finite as a bitcoin is infinitesimally divisable, unlike Gold, and so therefore is or will be in practice fiat, all the way to the fact that it is backed by nothing more than a belief in its value.

[indes]

I have a small restaurant in Castlegar BC and was approached to install a bitcoin ATM.

So technically I will be making money off bitcoin with no risk!

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by jammies

Like anything else people agree has value, you *can* use it as currency, but that doesn't make it a good currency, just as stuffing cash in your mattress doesn't make that mattress a good store of value. Buying a pizza with bitcoin is like buying a pizza with gold, you're using up a store of value to obtain a transient good, which only makes sense if you can't use a more suitable currency to do it with. It is currency only of desperation.

So you think carrying cash is more suitable/easier then electronically paying for something.

It went Gold > Cash > Check > Credit Card > Electronic Money

Everyone is trying to figure out how to utilize electronic money best. Whether or not bitcoin 'wins' is a different question then whether this is where the world is going

CC's are extremely expensive to merchants. Imagine if you could cut out the CC companies and banks and their crazy per txn fees for something cheaper.

Blockchain can be that something cheaper. And currently Bitcoin is the most adopted technology/use case

And you don't need to print more bitcoin. That is why it appreciates in value. The increase in value/market cap is the same as 'printing' more cash and increasing the USD total world 'market cap' of USD. Eventually things just cost 0.0000000001 of a bitcoin.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

And you don't need to print more bitcoin. That is why it appreciates in value. The increase in value/market cap is the same as 'printing' more cash and increasing the USD total world 'market cap' of USD. Eventually things just cost 0.0000000001 of a bitcoin.

You have just demonstrated exactly the level of knowledge of bitcoin I was complaining about. The bolded, in particular, is you saying "deflation is the same as inflation", and not seeing how ludicrous that is.

[Raekwon]

So with bitcoin being finite at 21 million and 18.5 million of that already mined you want it to become a standard accepted currency? Sure they tried to slow the end by halving mining rewards but its too late as the "wealth" is already in peoples hands and of that 18.5 million how much is in abandoned or unreachable wallets which can never be recovered.

Crypto currency has a place, bitcoin was a good study model but its not the one. I'm no expert in crypto so feel free to correct anything I've said.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So you think carrying cash is more suitable/easier then electronically paying for something.

It went Gold > Cash > Check > Credit Card > Electronic Money

Everyone is trying to figure out how to utilize electronic money best. Whether or not bitcoin 'wins' is a different question then whether this is where the world is going

CC's are extremely expensive to merchants. Imagine if you could cut out the CC companies and banks and their crazy per txn fees for something cheaper.

Blockchain can be that something cheaper. And currently Bitcoin is the most adopted technology/use case

And you don't need to print more bitcoin. That is why it appreciates in value. The increase in value/market cap is the same as 'printing' more cash and increasing the USD total world 'market cap' of USD. Eventually things just cost 0.0000000001 of a bitcoin.

The problem with this is it is inherently deflationary, if the value of your money increases like an investment people dont spend it, they put off purchases as long as possible, this in turn forces the shops to reduce prices to move stock, so now you have two reasons to put off buying things, the money you have will become worth more where as the prices will drop, a rising valued currency and reducing prices in the shops stops the economy in its tracks like nothing else can, far worse than rampant inflation frankly everyone puts off buying everything, it creates stagflation, it's a huge reason the Breton Woods Gold standard was dropped, a currency that cannot be deflated is going to kill the economy in the end

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by jammies

You have just demonstrated exactly the level of knowledge of bitcoin I was complaining about. The bolded, in particular, is you saying "deflation is the same as inflation", and not seeing how ludicrous that is.

You ignored the entire rest of my post. I argues cost is a key that blockchain can massively disrupt.

I never said said anything about Bitcoin being anti-inflationary as a key argument for its usefulness.

The question is do you prefer the government controls the supply and inflation policies or a centralized entity and true supply and demand.

What do you think would happen tomorrow if no one wanted to hold a USD because they lost confidence in it as a currency? What is no one had confidence in ANY of the banks or governments?

This is an actual use case in many countries and there currencies.

There are endless use cases for a decentralized currency.

Bitcoin prices go up because people demand it and there is a limited supply. In fact, a known FINITE supply (No other commodity I can think of has a known finite supply)

A currency needs to be portable (Where gold fails), easily liquid (where lots of assets fail) Crypto checks both of these.

Again - Bitcoin MAY not be the answer or the winner. They are the most popular right now, but there are lots of other competitors.

I can tell you one thing though - Within 10-15 years currency and banking as you know it will have completely changed.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The problem with this is it is inherently deflationary, if the value of your money increases like an investment people dont spend it, they put off purchases as long as possible, this in turn forces the shops to reduce prices to move stock, so now you have two reasons to put off buying things, the money you have will become worth more where as the prices will drop, a rising valued currency and reducing prices in the shops stops the economy in its tracks like nothing else can, far worse than rampant inflation frankly everyone puts off buying everything, it creates stagflation, it's a huge reason the Breton Woods Gold standard was dropped, a currency that cannot be deflated is going to kill the economy in the end

You know you can buy any asset with traditional currency and create the exact same scenario ��

This argument only would work if people’s only option for cash was to spend on disposable goods and services or hold as cash

There is also literally an entire industry around currency trading that does exactly this - moving their funds into currencies they thing will appreciate

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You ignored the entire rest of my post. I argues cost is a key that blockchain can massively disrupt.

I never said said anything about Bitcoin being anti-inflationary as a key argument for its usefulness.

The question is do you prefer the government controls the supply and inflation policies or a centralized entity and true supply and demand.

What do you think would happen tomorrow if no one wanted to hold a USD because they lost confidence in it as a currency? What is no one had confidence in ANY of the banks or governments?

This is an actual use case in many countries and there currencies.

There are endless use cases for a decentralized currency.

Bitcoin prices go up because people demand it and there is a limited supply. In fact, a known FINITE supply (No other commodity I can think of has a known finite supply)

A currency needs to be portable (Where gold fails), easily liquid (where lots of assets fail) Crypto checks both of these.

Again - Bitcoin MAY not be the answer or the winner. They are the most popular right now, but there are lots of other competitors.

I can tell you one thing though - Within 10-15 years currency and banking as you know it will have completely changed.

nothing that inherently increases in value is liquid, fiscal liquidity requires the currency to be roughly stable to reducing in value, otherwise people hoard it