Climate change and human responsibility

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I didn't need to read that article to know that North America's infatuation with pickup trucks has led to poor fuel economy relative to the rest of the world. The issue is that the domestic automakers are highly dependant on pickup truck sales (it's essentially all that keeps them in business) so good luck with either government dealing with this head on by applying a gas guzzler tax on the purchase of each and every one of these used for non-business commuting. GM employs over 100k people in Ontario and the Silverado and Sierra are built in Oshawa. This isn't like killing off O&G in Alberta as the federal government fully knows they cannot do anything that's going to jeopardize jobs in Ontario and Quebec. It's one of those things where the government likes to preach that they are conscious about the environment but not to the point they will make hard decisions that will cost them votes in the two most important provinces.

GM shut down their Oshawa plant this year so you'll need to spruce up this poor Alberta argument for the next time you use it.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

GM shut down their Oshawa plant this year so you'll need to spruce up this poor Alberta argument for the next time you use it.

Yes but plenty SUV's are still built in Canada. Also it's not a poor Alberta argument. It's the truth. Why are there loopholes for SUV's and trucks? Why are passenger cars subject to much stricter emissions regulations than trucks and SUV's when most people are buying SUV's and trucks? Why is it that passenger cars have never been more emission friendly yet emissions are going up in North America? We all know why. Ford and Chrysler are down to a single car left in their north american offerings. This isn't an Alberta issue. It's a real North American issue that our governments are not addressing and I think we all know why.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yes but plenty SUV's are still built in Canada. Also it's not a poor Alberta argument. It's the truth. Why are there loopholes for SUV's and trucks? Why are passenger cars subject to much stricter emissions regulations than trucks and SUV's when most people are buying SUV's and trucks? Why is it that passenger cars have never been more emission friendly yet emissions are going up in North America? We all know why. Ford and Chrysler are down to a single car left in their north american offerings. This isn't an Alberta issue. It's a real North American issue that our governments are not addressing and I think we all know why.

Exactly. There's a crazy stat where Ford sold 1.1 million F150's in 2018. That's 1 every 30 seconds or so. Over 900K of those were sold in the US, so you'd have to imagine including Canada, it'd be around the 1 million of the 1.1. Good luck shutting that down in North America anytime soon.

[rubecube]

So much facepalm.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ZNtEcqBi8Vxyh0

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So much facepalm.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ZNtEcqBi8Vxyh0

They took the bait, which I really wish they hadn't. I expect the headlines to talk about the alt right convoy just like happened when they rolled into Ottawa.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I didn't need to read that article to know that North America's infatuation with pickup trucks has led to poor fuel economy relative to the rest of the world. The issue is that the domestic automakers are highly dependant on pickup truck sales (it's essentially all that keeps them in business) so good luck with either government dealing with this head on by applying a gas guzzler tax on the purchase of each and every one of these used for non-business commuting. GM employs over 100k people in Ontario and the Silverado and Sierra are built in Oshawa. This isn't like killing off O&G in Alberta as the federal government fully knows they cannot do anything that's going to jeopardize jobs in Ontario and Quebec. It's one of those things where the government likes to preach that they are conscious about the environment but not to the point they will make hard decisions that will cost them votes in the two most important provinces.

Actually more like < 10 000 (7600 from this source). Not counting suppliers and indirect jobs but still along way from 100k.

OT I know.

https://www.gm.ca/en/company/operations.html

[Muta]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So much facepalm.

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/loc...ZNtEcqBi8Vxyh0

Well, this should be fun. I hope the inevitable shouting, chest-thumping and bravado to steal the Greta's spotlight doesn't further antagonize people's already fragile perceptions of Alberta and the O+G industry. Hoping the cringe is kept to a minimum.

[redforever]

Instead of protesting, she should be meeting with people like Peter Tertzakian to learn about the ins and outs of the oil industry in Alberta....like the fact that if the rest of the world adopted the practices of the oil patch in Alberta, carbon emissions could be cut by 20%.

[Ozy_Flame]

I like how Thunberg's presence is going to galvanize the Alberta Proud patriot types (or whatever they're called) but I don't recall a single "rolling into town" to protest Tzeporah Berman when she was actually part of the Alberta government.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by redforever

Instead of protesting, she should be meeting with people like Peter Tertzakian to learn about the ins and outs of the oil industry in Alberta....like the fact that if the rest of the world adopted the practices of the oil patch in Alberta, carbon emissions could be cut by 20%.

Why?

Shes not interested in learning anything. Her job is to proselytize.

Oil executives likely arent interested in meeting with her because she doesnt have anything to say to them that they dont already know and theres nothing they can say to her that she is going to care about hearing.

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why?

Shes not interested in learning anything.

Why do you say that? I'm not disagreeing but I'm curious what she's said or done that makes you think she's not open to discussion.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Locke

Why?

Shes not interested in learning anything. Her job is to proselytize.

We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. It costs nothing to be polite, civil, gracious, respectful, or informative.

But you're right, it's probably better to assert our moral superiority by assuming you already know everything about a person you've never met.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Ya, a 20 minute stop to charge every 500km isn't that big a deal, it will just be interesting to see how it is managed in the future when everyone needs to do it. You picture a long weekend at gas stations with the number of vehicles in and out in 5 minutes, and try to imagine how that works with everyone in EV's, and I can imagine a lot of frustration. But maybe charging speeds and battery capacity will improve at a rate that matches adoption, and it won't be a big deal.

Supply and demand will take care of that. Gas stations require a lot of infrastructure and regular delivery of gas. Chargers require only a little bit of work and never require deliveries. They can be but almost everywhere

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Supply and demand will take care of that. Gas stations require a lot of infrastructure and regular delivery of gas. Chargers require only a little bit of work and never require deliveries. They can be but almost everywhere

It still presents some challenges. These new stations will need power to supply x number of charging ports, so will need a reliable source of power to those stations. Imagine a blackout or something in the winter. Like last year when all those cars were stuck on the highway. What happens in a situation like that. How long can the batteries heat the cabin of an EV? I guess people will adapt to being better prepared for heading out, but some won’t be.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. It costs nothing to be polite, civil, gracious, respectful, or informative.



But you're right, it's probably better to assert our moral superiority by assuming you already know everything about a person you've never met.

Yeah, I definitely think taking the high road in a positive manner and using this as a opportunity to promote Alberta oil instead of making it adversarial is the best route if possible. Just don’t let it devolve into something confrontational or that’s going to show up on international news. Even if it is so much as an “well oil sucks and is destroying the world, but you should at least get it from Alberta instead of Saudi Arabia or Russia”. Look at how the diamond mines in NWT used this to their advantage. Wouldn’t you rather have a diamond mines from Canada than those evil blood diamonds? Um, thanks Leo?

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Supply and demand will take care of that. Gas stations require a lot of infrastructure and regular delivery of gas. Chargers require only a little bit of work

Not for high-voltage, high amperage chargers.

They can be but almost everywhere

Only if you want power output not much better than a block heater. If you want multiple chargers capable of 100+ kW, then it's not quite so easy.

And here's a large thread discussing issues found with Tesla's Superchargers, related to broken chargers and chargers only capable of low output:

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...superchargers/

And every time you do fast-charge a li-ion battery, you're probably doing damage to it that adds up. Here's a graph of one owners experience with a 2014 Model S after 3.7 years and 133K miles:




https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...dation.100913/

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Wormius

It still presents some challenges. These new stations will need power to supply x number of charging ports, so will need a reliable source of power to those stations. Imagine a blackout or something in the winter. Like last year when all those cars were stuck on the highway. What happens in a situation like that. How long can the batteries heat the cabin of an EV? I guess people will adapt to being better prepared for heading out, but some won’t be.

It's early on in this transition.

We needed to build out a massive supply of refined oil and we managed that. This is much, much easier.

EVs will be able to keep people warm just fine, gas cars do too.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Not for high-voltage, high amperage chargers.

Only if you want power output not much better than a block heater. If you want multiple chargers capable of 100+ kW, then it's not quite so easy.

And here's a large thread discussing issues found with Tesla's Superchargers, related to broken chargers and chargers only capable of low output:

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors...superchargers/

And every time you do fast-charge a li-ion battery, you're probably doing damage to it that adds up. Here's a graph of one owners experience with a 2014 Model S after 3.7 years and 133K miles:




https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...dation.100913/

You can build high voltage, high amperage chargers almost anywhere. Sure you need to improve electrical infrastructure as you build out. That's true for any service. Can you imagine saying you couldn't build gas stations because you'd need to build new roads and stations?

You do some damage to lithium batteries when you is high voltage chargers. Yet Tesla's with 160,000 km still often show little degradation, because that's not really a big issue. It's worse to charge it to 100% all the time or drive in hot environments. It's not a big deal

[Ozy_Flame]

Sounds like Rebel Media and Keean Bexte basically ambushed Greta and her parents in Edmonton with typical Rebel stupidity, including harassing her for having Asperger's. I'm not going to link to their tweets because I don't want to give them more clicks, but I am sure she's already having a riveting impression of our fantastic province.

[burn_this_city]

I think people are under appreciating how much power running a truck stop with say 20 fast chargers would draw from the grid.

Tesla's new V3 supercharger can pump out 250kw each, so in theory 4 cars would consume a whole MW of power, 5MW to charge 20 cars at a time. Add in the electric semis with 900-1,000kw battery packs to achieve a 600km range, they will draw up to 2MW each to achieve the claimed 30 min charge time.

The new Sheppard gas plant produces 860MW of power. The entire city of Calgary is using 1,050MW right now. If you were supercharging 20 cars and 5 semis at a time you're consuming 1.5% of the total load for the city.

I hope my math is right, I am pretty dumb when it comes to electrical.