Hockey Abuse Reckoning

[JohnnyB]

Reading other people's stories has had me thinking more of experiences I had when I was younger in sports. I have to say, I had a lot of great coaches who were very good people and really gave of themselves to everyone on the team when I was growing up, but I did have one coach while playing division one soccer in Calgary who I now clearly see as having been essentially bullying me and targeting me to treat like garbage. It was things like speaking to me in demeaning ways in front of the team, targeting me with criticism in front of team mates, not letting me play regardless of performance or putting me on the field and then immediately pulling me off without any cause. He would just screw around with me regardless of my performance or how hard I was working for the team.

As a kid, I was just trying to do my best to succeed. Listening to what my coach was telling me was part of how I had been taught to do that. It made me feel like garbage, but I didn't believe there wasn't anything I could do. I really cared and didn't want to quit the team, and he was in control of the team. As a young person, you also just tend to put faith in adults who are in positions of leadership and assume they're there for good reason.

Looking back with the perspective of an adult, especially having worked for years with responsibility for the care of thousands of young people, I think of a grown person treating a kid like that and can clearly see it was wrong and the guy was an adult who was bullying a child. At the same time, I also see that he was probably in that coaching position partly because he was a person with rather poor personal/professional ethics and was trying to take advantage of every opportunity to advantage his own son, who was also a player on the team and certainly received preferential treatment.

It's not uncommon to see people like that work to get those positions while others with more pure intentions aren't motivated to compete for the same role. I also understand that there was likely zero oversight system preventing him from acting the way he was because it wasn't a very sophisticated organization. In any event, as young person on the team dealing with an adult in a position you're taught to trust and respect, I didn't have perspective to fully appreciate what was going on. As an adult who has since gained that perspective, were I to look at that coach as a peer and see what he was doing, I would be disgusted.

Abuse of power and bullying is certainly not limited to physical, sexual or verbal abuse. There are many creative ways that people find to abuse power over others and it's not a slippery slope into victim culture to begin openly identifying and addressing these many ways people can abuse their authority. Fair judgments regarding abuses can be made, especially if those in authority over these systems have undergone training and education around identification and how to deal with it.

An open culture of recognizing and refusing to accept abuses of power is a good thing. It's a step towards having better organizations and better experiences for generations of people to come, both during their childhoods and their adult lives.

[Textcritic]

This was posted by AC in one of the other threads.

Originally Posted by AC

https://twitter.com/user/status/1200072603932774405

[N26]

I moved to Canada to play hockey at a higher level. I played 1 year of bantam, 2 years of midget and 1 year of what was then called Tier II Jr followed by NCAA in the States.

I had several coaches (and teammates) that were total dicks but my own application for sainthood will be swiftly rejected so I am not sure who I am to judge. I was a big guy (eventually 6'1. 226) who played physical. I was taught to walk the line/cross the line but I did it fairly willingly. I did my share of trash-talking and some of it I can't be proud of. By today's more holistic definitions of abuse and racism I feel like I saw quite a lot.

I got hazed twice. Once I had my hair, eyebrows and pubes shaved and the other time we had to complete a bunch of gross tasks like having your head zipped inside an equipment bag full of everyone's used jocks for "your sweater number" of seconds. Wasn't happy with those incidents but I half-heartedly participated in the future hazings and certainly did nothing to stop them.

It was called bonding but so often it left a bad taste in everyone, but those that were basically low-level sadists, mouths.

I am francophone (but not Quebecois) and have a very francophone name and one thing I can recall as clear as yesterday is getting called "frog" a lot. I mean a lot, a lot, a lot. Mostly in Calgary.

In the 4 years I lived there I feel confident in saying I heard it more than 1000 times. Probably about 80-90% of the occurrences were hockey-related. I can remember once an entire (admittedly very small) crowd chanting it when I had a penalty shot during an AJHL away game. That wouldn't go by unnoticed now.

It didn't bother me that much and I don't feel like I have any scars from it but I do remember being annoyed by how quickly it came to so many peoples' lips and how witty they thought they were.

My brother still lives in Alberta and he says he can't remember the last time he heard it. So that's good. He says he still has to work hard to get workmates not to give him the nickname "Frenchy" but that is a lack of imagination rather than maliciousness.

Positive change can happen.

[Azure]

I think there is a HUGE difference between using racial slurs or personal or physical attacks against a player and simply being a hardass as a coach.

People like Carcillo are to me just trolling for attention, and really just make people tune out instead of paying attention to what is going on across hockey as a whole.

At the end of the day these coaches are trying to motivate and get 20 guys on the same page, while playing in the what amounts to the toughest league in the world. At some point you need a coach that knows how to push buttons and push players, and sometimes you need a player coach who teaches the game.

There are a lot of good people in the game, and I honestly feel that a big reason this stuff doesn't constantly get brought up is because most people who actually play at a high level agree that you NEED coaches who can push you.

I remember all the stories about Darryl, both here and in LA, and I think now suddenly trying to sling mud and hoping it sticks is a shame when there is ACTUAL abuse going on.

To me the bigger concern is players in minor hockey. Most of us can attest to the rampant abuse going on there, and both coaches and parents need to be held accountable.

As far as the NHL is concerned I have a hard time believing that there is much of any ACTUAL abuse going on.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by browna

It will be interesting how this ages from 5 years ago:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...198/story.html

And Sutter being a hardass doesn't mean he was over the line, (again, over the line means different things for players who have different points of reference) Selanne had some great stories how Darryl's tough love kept him grounded in SJ and made him a better player for many more years.

The LA Times already had a report with more quotes from ex players on Sutter and it wasn't just being a hardass. Reports of physical assaulting a player and hints at other things.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by activeStick

The LA Times already had a report with more quotes from ex players on Sutter and it wasn't just being a hardass. Reports of physical assaulting a player and hints at other things.

The LA times only re-quotes one player, Carcillo’s Tweets. There has not been a second source to his comments.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think there is a HUGE difference between using racial slurs or personal or physical attacks against a player and simply being a hardass as a coach.

People like Carcillo are to me just trolling for attention, and really just make people tune out instead of paying attention to what is going on across hockey as a whole.

At the end of the day these coaches are trying to motivate and get 20 guys on the same page, while playing in the what amounts to the toughest league in the world. At some point you need a coach that knows how to push buttons and push players, and sometimes you need a player coach who teaches the game.

There are a lot of good people in the game, and I honestly feel that a big reason this stuff doesn't constantly get brought up is because most people who actually play at a high level agree that you NEED coaches who can push you.

I remember all the stories about Darryl, both here and in LA, and I think now suddenly trying to sling mud and hoping it sticks is a shame when there is ACTUAL abuse going on.

To me the bigger concern is players in minor hockey. Most of us can attest to the rampant abuse going on there, and both coaches and parents need to be held accountable.

As far as the NHL is concerned I have a hard time believing that there is much of any ACTUAL abuse going on.

I'm not surprised at all that there would be some abuse, especially with guys just entering the league or who are borderline NHLers. They would be easy victims. Playing hockey is likely the best ticket they have in life, but they haven't been able to really cash in on it yet and are hanging all their hopes on being able to do so. They also mostly don't have great fallback options and being a hockey player is at the core of their identity. Coaches can take all of those things away from them.

Add on to that a culture of covering up and hiding problems along with intense competition and high stakes for winning/losing careers and the NHL has a lot of factors in place to increase chances of abuse.

Look at what it has taken to move conversations forward in the NHL about head injuries and concussions that have wrecked people's brains. To think that abuse wouldn't be hidden and enabled in the NHL seems awfully optimistic.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm not surprised at all that there would be some abuse, especially with guys just entering the league or who are borderline NHLers. They would be easy victims. Playing hockey is likely the best ticket they have in life, but they haven't been able to really cash in on it yet and are hanging all their hopes on being able to do so. They also mostly don't have great fallback options and being a hockey player is at the core of their identity. Coaches can take all of those things away from them.

Add on to that a culture of covering up and hiding problems along with intense competition and high stakes for winning/losing careers and the NHL has a lot of factors in place to increase chances of abuse.

Look at what it has taken to move conversations forward in the NHL about head injuries and concussions that have wrecked people's brains. To think that abuse wouldn't be hidden and enabled in the NHL seems awfully optimistic.

Agreed. NHL minimum wage is life changing money. Full stop.

Coaches control lineups, ice time and opportunity.

Tremendous power imbalance

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The LA times only re-quotes one player, Carcillo’s Tweets. There has not been a second source to his comments.

You're right. I thought the Matt Greene incident was a quote from Greene himself.

Daniel Carcillo, a former NHL enforcer who played 26 games for the Kings during the 2013-14 season, said on Twitter he saw then-coach Darryl Sutter “kick someone in the lower back on the bench.”

Added Carcillo: “What he did to Matt Greene in front of the entire room before a team meeting when he had a concussion was absurd.”

https://www-latimes-com.cdn.ampproje...l-sutter-abuse

[AC]

On the Darryl Sutter front:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1200095093627113472

Brantt Myhres is the Brian McGrattan role with LA I believe still. He basically created that position after overcoming his own addictions and personal issues.

[btimbit]

I just have to take Carcillo with a massive grain of salt at this point. I don't dislike the guy, but he'll hurl accusations at anyone he disagrees with it seems

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think Darryl Sutter is a good man. There is ample evidence of that.
But I also think he was a polarizing coach who treated some players poorly and had an old school way of thinking, including how he felt about concussions and treated players suffering from them.

He can be both a good man, but someone who's coaching techniques haven't aged well.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think Darryl Sutter is a good man. There is ample evidence of that.
But I also think he was a polarizing coach who treated some players poorly and had an old school way of thinking, including how he felt about concussions and treated players suffering from them.

He can be both a good man, but someone who's coaching techniques haven't aged well.

I wonder how adaptable he is....or in light of the present circumstances, if he would even entertain the thought of coaching again.

[CaptainCrunch]

I've been thinking a lot about the coaching thing over the last few days, and not really responding, but following along. I'm not here to justify Bill Peter's actions or any other abusive coaches actions.


To put it into perspective and to lay it out honestly, I've got 13 years of coaching experience in Amateur Football.



I started out with 4 years at the high school level. I began as a Defensive Line Coach and then was moved to DC in my 2nd year. After that because of the work required for coaching, I happily stepped away. A few years later I was wearing my coaching Jacket at a Stamps game and was approached by a Coach of the Calgary Rage. They were looking for coaches and noticed my jacket, and we talked and I was invited on staff. My first year was as a Defensive Line and LB's coach. My second year and third year were as the DC there, and then I moved back to being a Linebackers Coach.


I had decided to leave coaching when I was recruited by the Calgary Cowboys, I started as the O line Coach and then was moved to the OC slot for the next three years. Last year, after being burned out and having a year marred by some pretty deep tragedies and a realization that I wasn't having fun, we mutally walked away. I was done and finished with coaching, I packed up my all of my playbooks, and DVD's and books on coaching. All of my guides and threw them into my storage room. But I was recruited by a Calgary Colts team that really needed coaches, it was close to my house and I figured that I wanted one more year just to end things right. We didn't do well in the standings, but it was the most fun coaching staff and groups of players that I worked with, and I'm looking at doing some Spring Ball as well as returning to Bantam.



When I first started coaching at the highschool level there was no certification requirement for coaching, you had to get a police check done, and that's it. So a lot of your training was by your head coach or your coordinator. You learned how to deal with players, practice, make adjustments to the game and motivate players based on the methods of your senior coaches.



When I went to the Rage Football Canada was pretty much just reforming their certification requirements and every coach had to get it. You took a day course on ethical decisions, dealing with players and parents. The major no's of coaching etc. Then you took your position certifications. Once you had that it doesn't expire you can merely go every year and take positional coaches.



Two years ago they added safe contact, this season it was mandatory to not only teach it but to actually have the certification. Its now a lot tougher for some dad who's only going to coach as long as his sons playing to walk on the field and coach. Or some ex CFL or college player to just declare himself a coach.



Ok that's step one of the personal coaching story. Now my experience as a player.


I was a football player, I was ok, not great, usually started. When I played in the caveman days. Coaches were usually either teachers or volunteers, they had previous playing experience and they usually picked up coaching methods used on them or taught to them by other coaches. Because of that you saw a lot of hard arse coaches. The term player coaches didn't exist. Parents sent their son into a meat grinder because of their belief that the coaches could toughen them up in sports, school and life. Maybe pass on some kind of life lesson in perseverance.



Now I will say this. I was yelled at by coaches, made to run laps til I puked, I was taught technique and footwork in battles and toughness in things like the Oklahoma Drill and King of the Mountain and the pits. Coaches would pit players against players, usually starters against Backups, because honestly backups want to start and kick the crap out of the Starters and the Starters want to keep their job. Coaches yelled and pushed, and tossed players around. I can't though remember having a single racist action happen, or any kind of excessive physical abuse, and frankly in those days a coach grabbing your face mask and yelling at you and slapping your helmet wasn't to me abusive, I never thought that way ever.



As I progressed in the sport from Midget to High School Junior Teams to High School Senior teams and beyond. The intensity ramped up. There was a coaching hierarchy, While a Position Coach might soften on you and have discussions, The Coordinator literally was as short as possible with you because he cared about systems and execution, And man if the head coach approached you, it was usually because you either did something really well, or you were so bad that you were now holding for field goals.



During the season, you didn't have conversations, you took direction and instruction and the yelling. In the off season, they were different people and you could talk to them.


So what's my point in this mess of text.


This is how these coaches were taught, and frankly this is how a lot of pro coaches were taught, they were lectured and encouraged by the previous generation of coaches. The Bill Peters got his lessons from his coach who got his lessons from his coach etc and etc. On top of that the really hyper successful coaches like the Scotty Bowmans, for example, were absolutely nasty pieces of work.



There were other coaches, like the Bob Johnsons for example who didn't take that route from player to assistant coach in the minors or the amateur ranks who clawed their ways to the NHL. The Johnson's who came through the coaching ranks via the college systems who viewed coaching as a science, a combination of systems and motivation and psychology theory.



Now, have things changed and do they have to change. I'd say yes and yes.



For me, I say down and thought about it. When I coached High School Ball years ago, I approached everything with a high level of intensity, and I knew there were times when I had to push or breakdown a player so I could build him up again. I knew I had to be demanding at times and intimidating at times, and I knew there were times that you needed to foster a us against them player coaching relationship. But the thing is, I never used personal insults, I jumped on their game and their effort level and their preparation. I never physically assaulted a player. I would demonstrate on players .


By the time I reached the Bantam coaching level, I made it pretty clear to the head coach. If you run head to head pits or ohlahoma or any of the other toughness battle drills, I probably can't be here. They don't teach technique and your probably going to concuss players. I stopped yelling at players and started talking to players, if I needed to demand effort I could do that. But the players knew that once or twice a season, there was a pretty good chance that I would blow up because of lack of effort, execution, preparation. How did they know that? Because I warned them at the start of the year, that I will yell when I need to yell, and you need to know what that means.



I had to change because the modern student athlete is smarter then we are, is better trained then we are, with the elite level players they have a level of desire that can't be coached. so that's great. I also use the reverse system with my staff. If I need a kid to be motivate, its up to you as a position coach to do that, If I have to step in its because your not doing it.



We're eventually going to see the end of the old school coaches, the old blood and guts yeller and screamers, the Peters, the Babcocks, The Torts, the guys like the Sutters will have to fade away. The players get paid too much to be motivated in traditional means and they have too much access to social media and the media. We're going to see more technocrat coaches, or teaching coaches or even player coaches with psychology degrees. With long term big money contracts, we're going to see less high effort players except in the last year of their deal unless coaches can start providing life lessons and sell players on effort that doesn't involved pitting players against each other.


Unless the league manages to either shorten contract terms or add a cut component to contracts anyways.


Look what Bill Peters did is beyond the pale and there should have never ever been any room for that in any organization, there's no motivational benefit to it or teaching opportunity in the use of racial slurs whether directed at a specific player or not.



The kicking, chocking and helmet hitting on the bench, that's a lesson that's been passed down over 100 years of hockey coaching experience in the answer how do a I get a player to pay attention or get his head out of his a$$. But that's a practice that's needed to go away for a long time.



This is certainly an issue that's on the NHL and on the individual organizations as well. How are they controlling things how are they ensuring quality control and making sure that coaches aren't crossing the line.



It also goes to the argument that Tre should have know, and its tough to say, but at the same time Carolina knew what was happening and probably Chicago as well and they chose to bury it. Does Tre know what's going on in his locker room?



We've seen a tectonic shift in coaching over the last dozen years especially at the Child level, now it seems that the pro game needs to put in the same effort and set up the same standards and enforcement that they have at the kids level.


Just my two cents.

[Wastedyouth]

All I can say is,

I have been developed as, and have developed, high end Olympic or near Olympic level athletes. Trained and competed against Olympic level athletes. Lived around and been in relationships with Olympic level athletes.
I knew their coaches and how they trained and were treated.

Being treated like a piece of #### by your coaches and trainers did not make them/me a high level athlete. And anyone coach that tells you they need to do that, is a garbage coach who is on a power trip and gets off making people feel like #### so they can feel powerful.

But it can certainly make you a low level person and create issues that you will have to deal with the rest of your life outside of sports.

You don't need to be treated poorly to be pushed to your limits. You can train someone hard, to the limits of their endurance, strength and will power, without degrading them.

Being a hardass is a cop out. And I will never agree with those tactics. They are detrimental to mental health and confidence, which are an athletes greatest enemy.

[Buff]

I quit playing hockey at the age of 10. We moved from Calgary to Lethbridge and for some bass ackward reason I didn't want to play because I didn't know anybody. A couple years later I thought about playing again, but I had heard stories about my older neighbor's about hazing. Very gross. Very humiliating. I stayed away from playing the sport I love. His stories are so disturbing that they still bother me over 30 years later.

Now I have 3 kids, and they all play hockey. Except, due to those stories I wouldn't put my kids in minor hockey. Instead, I found a rec league where they play on the same day, time and arena every weekend. One ice time per week. Half of the ice time is developing skills, the other half is having fun in a scrimmage. They get uniforms so there is two teams and once per month they turn on the scoreboard and have a fun game for the full hour. Each week a different kid from each team gets to play goal. It is very controlled, and very non-competitive, so my kids are safe and they get to play hockey. Now, kids will be kids and sometimes stuff will be said on the ice where the coaches don't always get to hear things, no different than the school yard, but usually kids will bring it up and it is dealt with.

My oldest keeps asking to play minor hockey instead, but I just can't let him due to hazing. Now with all this coming out about how some coaches mistreat players I feel very validated in my choice to protect my kids by keeping them out of minor hockey.

Hockey is supposed to be for everybody, but until there are better protocols methods for eliminating abuse by coaches or players, it really isn't for everybody.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

This is how these coaches were taught, and frankly this is how a lot of pro coaches were taught, they were lectured and encouraged by the previous generation of coaches. The Bill Peters got his lessons from his coach who got his lessons from his coach etc and etc. On top of that the really hyper successful coaches like the Scotty Bowmans, for example, were absolutely nasty pieces of work.
There were other coaches, like the Bob Johnsons for example who didn't take that route from player to assistant coach in the minors or the amateur ranks who clawed their ways to the NHL. The Johnson's who came through the coaching ranks via the college systems who viewed coaching as a science, a combination of systems and motivation and psychology theory.

This is 100% true.

I had one of my managers at work talk to me about the art and science of coaching or managing once and he said,

"You don't just tell a kid what they're doing wrong, you tell him what he's doing right, and you... 'Coach' him out of what they're doing wrong."

It requires more thought and etiquette than most people have the patience for.

Coaching isn't manipulation and intimidation despite what has made some individuals like Darryl Sutter successful.

Manipulation and intimidation are lazy shortcuts that have diminishing returns.
This is why some coaches have an expiry date. Yeah, it can be hard to genuinely reach a person, connect with them, or motivate them to play better.

But that's why they're paid a lot of money. The coaching profession in hockey needs a wakeup call and to look in the mirror.

I haven't done a Hockey Canada course in a while, but childhood psychology should be the focal point taught to coaches before skills and systems. If you want better teams you need better players and if you want better players you need better people.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Buff

I quit playing hockey at the age of 10. We moved from Calgary to Lethbridge and for some bass ackward reason I didn't want to play because I didn't know anybody. A couple years later I thought about playing again, but I had heard stories about my older neighbor's about hazing. Very gross. Very humiliating. I stayed away from playing the sport I love. His stories are so disturbing that they still bother me over 30 years later.

Now I have 3 kids, and they all play hockey. Except, due to those stories I wouldn't put my kids in minor hockey. Instead, I found a rec league where they play on the same day, time and arena every weekend. One ice time per week. Half of the ice time is developing skills, the other half is having fun in a scrimmage. They get uniforms so there is two teams and once per month they turn on the scoreboard and have a fun game for the full hour. Each week a different kid from each team gets to play goal. It is very controlled, and very non-competitive, so my kids are safe and they get to play hockey. Now, kids will be kids and sometimes stuff will be said on the ice where the coaches don't always get to hear things, no different than the school yard, but usually kids will bring it up and it is dealt with.

My oldest keeps asking to play minor hockey instead, but I just can't let him due to hazing. Now with all this coming out about how some coaches mistreat players I feel very validated in my choice to protect my kids by keeping them out of minor hockey.

Hockey is supposed to be for everybody, but until there are better protocols methods for eliminating abuse by coaches or players, it really isn't for everybody.

I’d let your kid play Calgary minor hockey. Hazing is really only a thing in upper ages, and then only in elite leagues. Any normal team in CMHA is coached by people like you and me, parents who contribute their time. Parents are in the room at almost all times, helping out. There’s really no “alone time” for players when hazing would occur.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

This is 100% true.

I had one of my managers at work talk to me about the art and science of coaching or managing once and he said,



It requires more thought and etiquette than most people have the patience for.

Coaching isn't manipulation and intimidation despite what has made some individuals like Darryl Sutter successful.

Manipulation and intimidation are lazy shortcuts that have diminishing returns.
This is why some coaches have an expiry date. Yeah, it can be hard to genuinely reach a person, connect with them, or motivate them to play better.

But that's why they're paid a lot of money. The coaching profession in hockey needs a wakeup call and to look in the mirror.

I haven't done a Hockey Canada course in a while, but childhood psychology should be the focal point taught to coaches before skills and systems. If you want better teams you need better players and if you want better players you need better people.

There are some good tips for encouraging kids in the coaching courses.

Addressing performance recommendations in a compliment sandwich is useful
Positive / suggestion for improvement / positive reinforcement

Example:
Hey, you are doing a great job with your skating
Next time with your c-cuts, I want you to try this ___
You are really on the right path developing a strong stride!

Simple stuff, and useful in everyday life


I personally think for so many people, their own worst enemy can be their mind, and too often you see the destructive influence of, frankly, people in positions of authority who have many struggles of their own that they fail to shield the kid from

It’s a tough situation.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

This is 100% true.

I had one of my managers at work talk to me about the art and science of coaching or managing once and he said,

It requires more thought and etiquette than most people have the patience for.

Coaching isn't manipulation and intimidation despite what has made some individuals like Darryl Sutter successful.

Manipulation and intimidation are lazy shortcuts that have diminishing returns.
This is why some coaches have an expiry date. Yeah, it can be hard to genuinely reach a person, connect with them, or motivate them to play better.

But that's why they're paid a lot of money. The coaching profession in hockey needs a wakeup call and to look in the mirror.

I haven't done a Hockey Canada course in a while, but childhood psychology should be the focal point taught to coaches before skills and systems. If you want better teams you need better players and if you want better players you need better people.

I don't get this.

Darryl Sutter won it all multiple times in the hardest league in the world.

To say he doesn't know how to coach literally shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

It hasn't taken long for the line between being a coach that is hard on players but fair and respectable(something most players have said Darryl is) has turned into 'not necessary to be a hardass.'

To me it is pretty telling that some of the greatest players to play the game who were coached by some of these manipulating coaches who according to some don't know how to coach despite evidence to the contrary are NOT coming out and throwing those specific coaches under the bus.

In all the years that Babcock coached the great players in Detroit, with their consistent success, all they ever said was his tactics wear out. Does that mean he didn't make them successful? Sure they wanted him fired, but why on earth would a GM fire a coach that was creating results?

What does everyone think Berube did last year in St. Louis? Give them a hug and tell everyone they are loved? Seriously.