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Old 12-12-2018, 11:55 AM   #2321
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Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL View Post
Man, New Era must really not be a fan of Peters, who is a massive fan of advanced stats

Not really. I like that he is getting results, but I would have preferred a couple of different coaches.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:13 PM   #2322
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Man, New Era must really not be a fan of Peters, who is a massive fan of advanced stats
He is?

I think he looks at them but it all boils down to what he sees and feels from the players both in practice and in games.

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SI: I know you’ve been asked a decent amount before about analytics. In the past, you’ve referred to the projects that you’ve given [Hurricanes hockey analyst] Eric Tulsky as “simple-minded.” In other words, that you were still in the early stages of exploring the world. Have you learned more? Have you been digging more into analytics?

BP: I love that world. It’s another source of information. And you use it. There’s all kinds of information out there. The best information I have is I’m around my team. I know who’s practicing well. I know who’s coming off, being sick. I know stuff that the analytics don’t know. I’ve got my analytics too. They work real good, and they’ve worked real good for me for a long period of time.

But I love getting the information. I love the conversations the information provokes, because it provokes thought, and once you have thought, you can have great banter. You can have great…what are they called…hot-stove sessions. They’re outstanding. And there’s no one way to do anything. There are multiple ways to skin a cat, and you’ve got to believe in your convictions, and your players buy in, and you play that way, and everyone knows how you play. I think analytics have helped our game.

But at the end of the day, too, you have to make decisions based on what’s going on right in front of you, spur-of-the-moment decisions. We’re going to have 12 forwards in the game tonight. Three of them are going to be better than nine. So let’s find those three that are going. Maybe they’re on the same line. Maybe they’re not. Maybe there’s a situation we’ve got to move people around within the framework of the game based on how they’re playing. There are a lot of things that go into every decision you make, but you have to be able to make decisions quickly.
https://www.si.com/nhl/2017/01/31/bi...ina-hurricanes
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Old 12-12-2018, 01:54 PM   #2323
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I guess you missed the snark tags?


I will just add it is sometimes ridiculous the lengths that people will go to and try to convince you that players are actually better than they appear on the surface. I mean, production is the end result, but even those with low production and high ice time have a case built for their excellence using these non-stats stats. Advanced stats have become the participant ribbons for those who just can't get it done.
No I saw the snark tags ...

But you've said the same things many many times. I can't just put POMPOS before a post and then say something I've said many times with immunity.

Who are you talking about?

I think advanced stats have become nothing of the sort. They are additional information in which to assess players and their performance. If you choose to either ignore or mystify the data that's up to you, but many wisely choose to take whatever is available to look into players.
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Old 12-12-2018, 01:56 PM   #2324
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He is?

I think he looks at them but it all boils down to what he sees and feels from the players both in practice and in games.



https://www.si.com/nhl/2017/01/31/bi...ina-hurricanes
For sure.

No coach is going to go off of stats alone, that should be pretty obvious.

He's referred to advanced stats on a few occasions this season though, once on Bennett himself and how he was creating chances and deserved more ice time.
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:40 PM   #2325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99 View Post
He is?

I think he looks at them but it all boils down to what he sees and feels from the players both in practice and in games.



https://www.si.com/nhl/2017/01/31/bi...ina-hurricanes
Obviously he doesn't rely solely on them, but he refers to them all the time when talking about his teams play as well as players (especially Bennett).
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:55 PM   #2326
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Originally Posted by Bingo View Post
No I saw the snark tags ...

But you've said the same things many many times. I can't just put POMPOS before a post and then say something I've said many times with immunity.

Who are you talking about?

I think advanced stats have become nothing of the sort. They are additional information in which to assess players and their performance. If you choose to either ignore or mystify the data that's up to you, but many wisely choose to take whatever is available to look into players.
I just don't think advanced stats and Bennett are ever going to compute well enough to tell the story with this player no matter how you look at it.

We all know he can look good for stretches and make a difference in a third line role with his tenacity and grit. The fact that he has something like 60 points in his last 200 games played (0.3 PPG) is pretty telling when you consider that number hasn't really budged despite having different line-mates, coaches and playing different positions during that time.

IMO he is what he is now and the Flames either need to embrace that and ensure his usage reflects it, or move on entirely. He would be far more valuable to this team if he focused and excelled at the other aspects of his game as opposed to sucking offensively in some in between role that ultimately results in far too little to justify.
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:59 PM   #2327
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For sure.

No coach is going to go off of stats alone, that should be pretty obvious.

He's referred to advanced stats on a few occasions this season though, once on Bennett himself and how he was creating chances and deserved more ice time.
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Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL View Post
Obviously he doesn't rely solely on them, but he refers to them all the time when talking about his teams play as well as players (especially Bennett).
It's almost like Peters looks at all kinds of data and doesn't dismiss one information source in favour of another.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:07 PM   #2328
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I just don't think advanced stats and Bennett are ever going to compute well enough to tell the story with this player no matter how you look at it.

We all know he can look good for stretches and make a difference in a third line role with his tenacity and grit. The fact that he has something like 60 points in his last 200 games played (0.3 PPG) is pretty telling when you consider that number hasn't really budged despite having different line-mates, coaches and playing different positions during that time.

IMO he is what he is now and the Flames either need to embrace that and ensure his usage reflects it, or move on entirely. He would be far more valuable to this team if he focused and excelled at the other aspects of his game as opposed to sucking offensively in some in between role that ultimately results in far too little to justify.
I think they compute but may not project.

Sometimes a guy with good numbers is just unlucky and will break out.

Bennett may be a guy that generates more than most, but his lack of finish, and not using his linemates mean the chances die on his stick (shooting wide, poor shot) and don't result in what you'd expect .... chances for teammates on rebounds etc.

My theory anyway.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:15 PM   #2329
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I think they compute but may not project.

Sometimes a guy with good numbers is just unlucky and will break out.

Bennett may be a guy that generates more than most, but his lack of finish, and not using his linemates mean the chances die on his stick (shooting wide, poor shot) and don't result in what you'd expect .... chances for teammates on rebounds etc.

My theory anyway.
Been thinking something for a while about Bennett and Johnny

Gaudreau is somehow shooting the puck way harder and quicker release this season.

To me teaching bennett to shoot better may be an easy fix, I think his shot is the worst part of his game and he probably needs to do some practice with the guy who taught johnny to shoot better and I would imagine Bennett's goals will go up.

currently his shot is just a little slow to get off and weak compared to his physical strength.

You should be able to teach wrist strength and shooting
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:48 PM   #2330
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Tonight seems like a good candidate to be one of Bennett's patented games. Seem to be more people vocal about souring on him, he's dropped below a projected 25 points. Out of spite he'll have a 4 point night while being a physical beast just so we get a lot of "I told you so" posts aimed at the detractors as people preach patience. Might even follow it up with another awesome game. And then he'll go silent for a month or two.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:53 PM   #2331
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Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL View Post
Obviously he doesn't rely solely on them, but he refers to them all the time when talking about his teams play as well as players (especially Bennett).
OK....but that's a long way from "massive fan".

He looks at them...may even try things they are telling him, but in the end its going to be what he thinks....full stop.
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Old 12-12-2018, 04:59 PM   #2332
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Been thinking something for a while about Bennett and Johnny

Gaudreau is somehow shooting the puck way harder and quicker release this season.

To me teaching bennett to shoot better may be an easy fix, I think his shot is the worst part of his game and he probably needs to do some practice with the guy who taught johnny to shoot better and I would imagine Bennett's goals will go up.

currently his shot is just a little slow to get off and weak compared to his physical strength.

You should be able to teach wrist strength and shooting

I think he is merely shooting it more than he used to. It was mentioned on a broadcast (I think it was Hrudey) that he had asked Peters about that and Bill told him he had a talk with JG and asked him to shoot more cause he has always had a good shot but just didnt use it as often as he could.

Bennett doesn't have a good shot and moreso not a good hockey IQ to understand when and when not to use the shot he has. I think Sams shot is hard and whatnot bu his release time is painfully slow and not sure its all that accurate...which is indeed something he can work on.
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Old 12-12-2018, 05:14 PM   #2333
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At this point, Bennett’s point totals are unlikely to be anything special this season considering his current pace and being bumped down the line up is unlikely to help with this. I still think he can be a good middle 6 grinder who can play up and down the line and score the occasional beauty.

But the most bewildering stat to me of all things has to be his assist totals. In juniors, he was an assist per game player for his final 2 seasons with Kingston, yet his career high at the NHL level is 18 with a current pace of 13 this season. I wonder where his playmaking ability could have gone?

When you watch him play, it looks like he has no interest in passing at all especially when he tries to go one on one on every other rush. Even when he plays with historically good snipers like Monahan and Neal, the vision and set ups are almost non existent. Very very puzzling.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:15 AM   #2334
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Originally Posted by Bingo View Post
I think they compute but may not project.

Sometimes a guy with good numbers is just unlucky and will break out.

Bennett may be a guy that generates more than most, but his lack of finish, and not using his linemates mean the chances die on his stick (shooting wide, poor shot) and don't result in what you'd expect .... chances for teammates on rebounds etc.

My theory anyway.
Im not convinced that Bennett lacks finish. IMO it's more about lacking a sufficient mix of (a) hockey sense and (b) vision/processing speed.

Bennett is bad at finding open spaces where he can shoot when he gets passes, bad at setting up and creating space for his teammates, bad at knowing how to support teammates when they have the puck, bad at knowing how to breakout of the defensive zone, bad at knowing where to be relative to the goalie and shooter to get garbage goals. It's 100% conceptual understanding of where to be and what to do. It could either be that the game moves to fast, in which case he improves over time if the game slows down. Or it's that he just doesn't think the game well enough, which puts him in the middle six role without PP time. That he was so good in junior is a testament to how good his raw technical skills must be.

I felt that as the game sped up in Peters system, he'd be better because he has the technical skills to execute at speed. But playing faster doesn't really help him on the conceptual side of the game. So he's a little better this year because the system plays to his strength, but the underlying weakness is still ever present.

IMO the best hope for him is just to stick with it - learn from guys like tkachuk, lindholm, backlund, Monahan and Johnny, who have some of the best hockey iqs in the game today. And just hope one day everything starts to click.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:26 AM   #2335
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At this point, Bennett’s point totals are unlikely to be anything special this season considering his current pace and being bumped down the line up is unlikely to help with this. I still think he can be a good middle 6 grinder who can play up and down the line and score the occasional beauty.

But the most bewildering stat to me of all things has to be his assist totals. In juniors, he was an assist per game player for his final 2 seasons with Kingston, yet his career high at the NHL level is 18 with a current pace of 13 this season. I wonder where his playmaking ability could have gone?

When you watch him play, it looks like he has no interest in passing at all especially when he tries to go one on one on every other rush. Even when he plays with historically good snipers like Monahan and Neal, the vision and set ups are almost non existent. Very very puzzling.
Though I agree with you, there has also been a lot of examples of players whiffing on grade A scoring chances after being set up by Bennett, especially early in the season, when he couldn't get a point out of a great play even if his life depended on it. The fact that James Neal can't score any goals despite shooting the puck at a decent clip has also been detrimental to Bennetts totals. He's not exactly what we thought he would be, but he also ralely has any puck luck. Maybe that's just the way it is and will be with him, or maybe he will power through it and start getting his totals up a bit. I guess we'll see.
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Old 12-14-2018, 08:39 AM   #2336
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Hard to think one could be unlucky for a couple hundred games.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:33 AM   #2337
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Though I agree with you, there has also been a lot of examples of players whiffing on grade A scoring chances after being set up by Bennett, especially early in the season, when he couldn't get a point out of a great play even if his life depended on it. The fact that James Neal can't score any goals despite shooting the puck at a decent clip has also been detrimental to Bennetts totals. He's not exactly what we thought he would be, but he also ralely has any puck luck. Maybe that's just the way it is and will be with him, or maybe he will power through it and start getting his totals up a bit. I guess we'll see.
Yeah I think we've heard about Sam Bennett's snake bitten bad luck for years now. He's either the unluckiest player in the NHL or he is what he is at this point. He's had a long look on the 2nd line, ample time playing with a terrific playmaker in Tkachuk and enough time on the powerplay to develop a reliable opinion what he is.

I still think he plays the game too much like a flashy junior player who tries to beat NHL level defenders one on one too often. I don't think that's his game IMO. Personally, I'd like to see him hold on to the puck less, dump the puck in, forecheck, grind along the boards and win puck battles. I like his game along the cycle and his tenacity serves him well down low.

The goal he scored yesterday while driving the net and getting into the dirty areas is exactly the type of goal I think he can score a lot of at this level. If Sam Bennett develops more upper body strength/weight, then I think he could develop more into a power forward. If he starts working on screening goaltenders and tipping pucks at practice like Tkachuk, then I think that's the kind of net front presence that would be very beneficial for this team going into the playoffs.
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Old 12-14-2018, 09:45 AM   #2338
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He is?

I think he looks at them but it all boils down to what he sees and feels from the players both in practice and in games.



https://www.si.com/nhl/2017/01/31/bi...ina-hurricanes
I just want to say - wow. I love BP's attitude here. He's dialed in. He gets it. He adjusts as necessary, and quickly. None of this square peg into a round hole for 82 games. If it isn't working, he adjusts it. I love it.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:28 PM   #2339
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Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder View Post
Been thinking something for a while about Bennett and Johnny

Gaudreau is somehow shooting the puck way harder and quicker release this season.

To me teaching bennett to shoot better may be an easy fix, I think his shot is the worst part of his game and he probably needs to do some practice with the guy who taught johnny to shoot better and I would imagine Bennett's goals will go up.

currently his shot is just a little slow to get off and weak compared to his physical strength.

You should be able to teach wrist strength and shooting
Agree with a lot of your evaluation and potential solution, however , I believe that his lack of vision and/or hockey IQ is the bigger issue.
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Old 12-14-2018, 03:32 PM   #2340
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Been thinking something for a while about Bennett and Johnny

Gaudreau is somehow shooting the puck way harder and quicker release this season.

To me teaching bennett to shoot better may be an easy fix, I think his shot is the worst part of his game and he probably needs to do some practice with the guy who taught johnny to shoot better and I would imagine Bennett's goals will go up.

currently his shot is just a little slow to get off and weak compared to his physical strength.

You should be able to teach wrist strength and shooting
So Bennett should start playing with a 65 flex twig?
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