WOW, You Canadians and your Healthcare

[moon]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

you just contradicted yourself. the more doctors in private clinics the less there are available for the public, and if a doctor coming out of med-school has to choose between a private practice for more money or public for less, what do you think he'll choose?

That's assuming that every doctor in Canada stays here and thus the doctors who would be in private care would all have to come from the current pool of doctors in the country.

There are plenty of doctors that currently leave Canada because they don't want to work in the universal system.

Doctors have the option to leave the public-sector right now for more money, the difference is now those same doctors get to stay in Canada and help Canadians.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

The system isn't the problem in Canada, it's years of mismanagement that is. We need more primary care physicians and nursing staff. Part of the reason specialist wait lists are long is that a large proportion of referrals are inappropriate as people are simply going to walk-in clinics were GPs don't have time to work-up relatively simple problems. Approximately 30% of Albertans don't have a GP, if that problem gets fixed then I think everything else would more or less fall in line. As for level of care, even in the case of the very rich, I know a number of people that went to see world famous specialists at the Mayo Clinic for second opinions on their problems and came back disappointed as they had a massive bill but the same information they had received in Canada.

One of our close friends was not feeling well for several years, had been to his doctor here in Canada, was referred for an MRI, he also paid for 2 private MRI's and with all 3 scans, he was told he never had any major problem.

He still never felt well, so got all his tests etc here from Canada and went to the Mayo Clinic and was told within 24 hours that he had bone cancer. The doctors at the Mayo initially looked at the MRI's and saw the cancer but did their own tests to confirm their diagnosis.

His immediate thoughts of course were of litigation, how could 3 MRI's all have been read wrong? But when you have serious health problems, you need to conserve all your energies for treating your condition.

He thought that he would also like to have his treatments at the Mayo Clinic since at that point, he did not trust the Canadian system. But the doctors at the Mayo told him that the Tom Baker clinic in Calgary was top notch and world class, that he would get just as good treatment there as the Mayo, they knew the doctors there, would consult with them and together come up with a plan for treatment.

He ended up having chemo and then when he was in remission, he had the stem cell procedure which was a total success.

So I think there are hits and misses in any system. Our friend unfortunately had a miss in the reading of his MRI's but had a hit in treating his cancer.

Big thing about his treatment in cancer, no extra out of pocket costs.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

Well by paying, you're going to be neglecting someone that can't necessarily afford the costs. So who is it to say the rich deserve to live and the poor don't?

I had a feeling it would be taken the wrong way. I am not saying someone who can't afford to have something done shouldn't get it, but there should be an option other than flying to the US to get something done within a reasonable time. People are dying on these lists.

Going down to the states they charge you too much but you get it done right away, if you stay in Canada it is free but super long lines. Why can't there be a happy medium option in Canada? If those people who can afford to get the procedure at a reasonable rate for their procedure it is a shorter wait with a clinic but there is a cost, this is turn would shorten the list of people waiting to get the procedure paid by the government.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by moon

That's assuming that every doctor in Canada stays here and thus the doctors who would be in private care would all have to come from the current pool of doctors in the country.

There are plenty of doctors that currently leave Canada because they don't want to work in the universal system.

Doctors have the option to leave the public-sector right now for more money, the difference is now those same doctors get to stay in Canada and help Canadians.

I'm certainly a vicious adversary of any form of private health care system - such a fundamental social service has to be managed in a public manner as far as I'm concerned.

But... the problem you mention is real and certainly the biggest challenge facing public healthcare these days (closely followed by piss poor management).

It's even worse for nurses. Brand spanking new nurses are finding more and more that they can get better pay and better hours in the the United States and can more importantly find avenues for advancement. In Canada, new nurses are treated like dirt by the system and advancement is basically non-existent except for a privileged few. It's entirely based on time served with very little consideration for merit.

How do you balance encouraging professionals to stay in our system without selling it to the highest bidder? I have yet to see anyone answer this question in North America. Apparently we are supposed to believe a person's health is a commodity to be traded. Such an evil notion...

[Azure]

I wish people would quit thinking its free.

We still PAY for it.

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by llama64

I'm certainly a vicious adversary of any form of private health care system - such a fundamental social service has to be managed in a public manner as far as I'm concerned.

But... the problem you mention is real and certainly the biggest challenge facing public healthcare these days (closely followed by piss poor management).

It's even worse for nurses. Brand spanking new nurses are finding more and more that they can get better pay and better hours in the the United States and can more importantly find avenues for advancement. In Canada, new nurses are treated like dirt by the system and advancement is basically non-existent except for a privileged few. It's entirely based on time served with very little consideration for merit.

How do you balance encouraging professionals to stay in our system without selling it to the highest bidder? I have yet to see anyone answer this question in North America. Apparently we are supposed to believe a person's health is a commodity to be traded. Such an evil notion...

Disagree completely. I can count on one hand the number of colleagues who have left for the US, and one of them has since come back. For reasons already mentioned, and a slew of others, it isnt as desireable as people think.

You know what the biggest cause of surgical/colonoscopy waitlists are? A lack of procedure/operating room time, not a lack of surgeons. If the surgeons could, they'd operate a hell of alot more with their time but they are handcuffed by only having access to the OR 1-2 days a week, and limits on how long a nurse/support staff can work (ie. Union workers).

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Azure

I wish people would quit thinking its free.

We still PAY for it.

The only reason I am using the term "free" is because I don't feel like typing "at no additional costs than the taxes you have paid over you life time".

Most people probably wouldn't pay enough taxes in their life towards medical to cover even a tenth of the cost as a heart transplant down in the states.

[flip]

Originally Posted by Azure

I wish people would quit thinking its free.

We still PAY for it.

Wow, thanks captain obvious.

That issue has already been raised and answered several times. Every single time Canadian vs American health care comes up and someone brings this up but what they never mention is that Americans pay taxes too and their gov. spends money on health care just like ours.

Azure did you really post this thinking that anyone in this thread didn't know that we pay for our health care through taxes?

[bcb]

Originally Posted by KTrain

So you're saying people should be allowed to pay doctors to come to their houses during their off hours to perform medical procedures?

Sounds reasonable.

I assume you're not being sarcastic

I agree, it is reasonable. Why shouldn't doctors be able to maximuze their earnings, while at the same time, relieving some of the traffic jam in the que?

[bcb]

Originally Posted by Table 5

You know what, I'll gladly take it. Because in the end, there are certain guarantees that you have, even if you have to pay a few hundred dollars extra year. If you get cancer or become a paraplegic, you know you will at least be taken care of for the long term, and you don't have to mortgage your life savings, or that of your family, in order to do so.

As I mentioned above, I have a friend who takes a $12,000/dose form of medicine for his rare type of hemophilia. Luckily he's not American, but if he was, do you think he'd rather pay a little bit higher in taxes every year, instead of having to face THAT monster of a bill?

Again, this issue seems to be dichotomous, in that you're either for the American or Canadian Health care system.

People need to take a deep breath and have a rational discussion about the European model without being labelled a reactionary.

[JiriHrdina]

I've lost faith in our health care system.
When I injured my knee almost 3 years ago they refused to do an MRI for 6 months. I finally shelled out the dollars myself which revealed they had misdiagnosed it and indeed my knee was totally torn up. I've spent about 15K on my knee over the last 2 years and it still isn't right.

Now my dad needs a triple by pass - he was told at the beginning of the year it was a serious situation and he would have it done in 1-2 months. Then months later they said "June for sure". The last week they booked him for Friday and he got bumped again. His life is at risk here and no one seems to care.

So yeah - we have problems up here for sure.

[moon]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

You know what the biggest cause of surgical/colonoscopy waitlists are? A lack of procedure/operating room time, not a lack of surgeons. If the surgeons could, they'd operate a hell of alot more with their time but they are handcuffed by only having access to the OR 1-2 days a week, and limits on how long a nurse/support staff can work (ie. Union workers).

If I am going to pay for private care then 1. That money could then go into creating private facilities reducing the amount of surgeries needed in the public OR's and 2. reduce the number of people that use those public OR's as well.

So the regular person actually gets their surgery faster than they would had I not gone to a private doctor.

A major issue that people seem to have against private care is that I might get surgery faster than you and even if that means that you get your surgery faster you would prefer that we both have to wait then me going first by paying extra money. (By you I mean that in the general sense not Nuclear in particular).

[Clever_Iggy]

I love the US system. Obviously I'm in the "have" group and it's wonderful. Both systems are broken in their own way, but, if I'm going to pay either taxes or medical insurance premiums for coverage, I'd rather be down here and get proper medical care.

I think the only plausible option for the US other than the current system, but stays within the capitalist structure of their society and away from anything too socialist, is a tiered system: minimum care available for everyone, but an option to have your own private insurance that provides superior insurance. Have the minimum approximately what Canada enjoys (long waits, lack of specialists, lack of access, etc....) and the "upper tier" have access to what is presently available.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by llama64

I'm certainly a vicious adversary of any form of private health care system - such a fundamental social service has to be managed in a public manner as far as I'm concerned.

But... the problem you mention is real and certainly the biggest challenge facing public healthcare these days (closely followed by piss poor management).

It's even worse for nurses. Brand spanking new nurses are finding more and more that they can get better pay and better hours in the the United States and can more importantly find avenues for advancement. In Canada, new nurses are treated like dirt by the system and advancement is basically non-existent except for a privileged few. It's entirely based on time served with very little consideration for merit.

How do you balance encouraging professionals to stay in our system without selling it to the highest bidder? I have yet to see anyone answer this question in North America. Apparently we are supposed to believe a person's health is a commodity to be traded. Such an evil notion...

Two problems here. One is similar to teaching.....their union. Unions just about always promote those having put in more time, rather that those who on merit deserve promotion.

The other problem is the consumer themselves. We as consumers have to put more stock in our nurses, in our day care workers, in our senior nursing home workers, in our home care providers, in our doctors and tell the various authorities that the pay scale at present is out of whack.

When you pay some of these workers per hour about the same as what you pay for a glass of wine in a restaurant, something is wrong with that picture. Surely our health, our children, our seniors are worth more than that?

And with doctors, the system itself is the problem. Every doctor is paid the same per visit, per referral, per consultation...unless you are a specialist or surgeon doing higher skilled procedures. So the only way doctors can earn more money is to either negotiate a small increase in their present pay scale, or see more patients. That is simply not a good system.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Now my dad needs a triple by pass - he was told at the beginning of the year it was a serious situation and he would have it done in 1-2 months. Then months later they said "June for sure". The last week they booked him for Friday and he got bumped again. His life is at risk here and no one seems to care.

That makes no sense. I've had 2 MRI's in the last year in regards to a brain tumour I have. Both were urgent and done in a timely fashion.

[missdpuck]

Are Canadian doctors given any kind of bonus for practicing preventative medicine (whatever that may be)? I believe they are in Britain.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Dion

That makes no sense. I've had 2 MRI's in the last year in regards to a brain tumour I have. Both were urgent and done in a timely fashion.

The only reason I got one finally was because I paid for it. I couldn't get a doctor to authorize the test.

It's a lottery - if you get the right doctor you are taken care of. If you don't - you're screwed.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

Disagree completely. I can count on one hand the number of colleagues who have left for the US, and one of them has since come back. For reasons already mentioned, and a slew of others, it isnt as desireable as people think.

You know what the biggest cause of surgical/colonoscopy waitlists are? A lack of procedure/operating room time, not a lack of surgeons. If the surgeons could, they'd operate a hell of alot more with their time but they are handcuffed by only having access to the OR 1-2 days a week, and limits on how long a nurse/support staff can work (ie. Union workers).

Our society is spending money to train health care workers only to lose them to better opportunities in other countries. It's a massive problem and one I would prioritize over everything else.

It's not hard to build buildings and buy equipment. It is hard to retain talent and especially hard when you can't even keep the talent you train yourself.

[T@T]

US healthcare = major epic fail.

For those hating the waits for MRI's etc. travel to a small town and see a doc, a buddy of mine went to Red Deer to have his done and it took 3 days to get him booked in, anyone who complains about free healthcare is either very rich or very ######ed.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It's a lottery - if you get the right doctor you are taken care of. If you don't - you're screwed.

That happens down here too. I friend of mine had been having a headaches and had gone to about 3-4 American doctors who just kept giving him stronger head ache pills and told him he had migraines. When he went back to Turkey for the holidays, he went to a doctor, who sent him for an MRI, revealing a brain tumor. He had brain surgery the very next day. The American doctor's didn't even send him for an MRI, while some doctor in bumfata Turkey could figure it out.

We sometimes forget that no matter which system you are under, there are good doctors and bad doctors, and who you go to can make a difference of life and death.