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Old 02-11-2019, 10:44 PM   #9621
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Originally Posted by home_sweet_dome View Post
Jarome freaking Iginla got traded for a late 1st and a couple C prospects.

Stone is a pending UFA, not someone with term left at some bargain contract. It's called a rental for a reason.

So yes a 1st + something significantly less valuable than Valimaki can get it done.
Yes, a 36 year old Jarome Iginla got that deal done, just a touch different than 26 year old Mark Stone.

Ottawa is laughing at that proposal and taking any of the five other offers on the table.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:47 PM   #9622
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Can you explain why? He's constantly drawing the other teams top line 5 on 5 because he's playing alongside our best shutdown centre. Constantly starting in the defensive zone and doesn't have a top 6 RW to play with. And he's 21 years old lots of room to grow still.
He has a 55% Ozone start percentage. He is not starting most of the time in his own zone. This is not last year or the year before in how he’s being deployed. The top line a lot more often than not is being deployed against the other teams top line.

As for him we’ll I’ve said this before but I don’t think he drives lines that well. Away from Backlund he’s mediocre. And Backlund has put up just as good numbers with inferior players. If he was such a good player I’d think Backlund would see a bump from playing with him as compared to his play with Bennett and Frolik before Tkachuk showed up. I don’t see a lot of projection in his game given his lack of speed. Would he get a few more points on the top line? Maybe but they’d need to find a new center. Him and Monahan is too little speed to drive play. He also plays the same position as Gaudreau and thus will never be on the top line so long as Johnny is around.

But he’s certainly a player I want to stick around. I think he is a great top 6 forward and is really important to us. I just don’t view him as franchise defining like I do Gaudreau. And I don’t love the thought of paying him 8-9 million dollars. He’s just not that good. 7 though sure I’m fine with that.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:01 PM   #9623
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I love Tkachuk... Want to see him be a lifelong flame ideally. But I agree that his numbers are a bit inflated and he should never be the highest paid guy on the team.

I said the other day... This timing on the contract reminds me a lot of Phaneuf entry level expiring. I think he will be a good 60-75 point a year player for a long time if scoring numbers stay up but I'd be way more comfortable with him around 6.5-7 a year even though that seems unlikely. If he holds out and the offer sheet risk is there I'd be fine with them trading him if a comparable high end young player with more cost control is coming back though I hope that scenario doesn't play out.

Defensive game is not super strong and footspeed is slow. Amazing hands, incredible hockey smarts and character though. Don't get me wrong hoping he stays but just that it is not an overpay.

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Old 02-11-2019, 11:04 PM   #9624
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Originally Posted by DomeFoam View Post
Yes, a 36 year old Jarome Iginla got that deal done, just a touch different than 26 year old Mark Stone.

Ottawa is laughing at that proposal and taking any of the five other offers on the table.
Iginla also had limited the market down to one or two teams, and then one.
Hard to drive market value in that type of situation.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:10 PM   #9625
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The price of rentals in general has gone down since the Iginla trade
GMs aren't quite as dumb anymore, I think
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:19 PM   #9626
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Minny is in a playoff spot and will likely trade Stall for junk?
I think that Minnesota is going to fade, and it's not a secret. They just lost Koivu for the season, and players have been called out. The owner isn't the sort who will be happy with possibly squeaking into the playoffs, so I think that would put Staal out there as trade bait.

They are also always on the hunt for cost control because of the Parise and Suter contracts, as well as others that have made them cost conscious. Getting back 2 rookie/2nd year players with upside would make them look, IMO.

Mangiapane is a prototypical rookie, showing the talent to stick, but learning the game. Czarnik showed more in Boston, and seems to just not be a perfect fit in Calgary for some reason. Do they hold a lot of value? Nope. Do they hold enough to get a mid 30s aged UFA? Yup.
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:31 PM   #9627
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Okay before we get even more carried away let’s not pretend the Iginla trade was some sort of barometer of maximizing value shall we? That trade was a train wreck.

Basically if you are a Flames fan on this site and proposing a trade you need to first put your mind in the other GM’s shoes and think “would I ever in a million years do this?” And then after you’re done lying to yourself ask yourself two or three more times. If you’re then still convinced that yes it’s a fair deal you hit the submit reply button.

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Old 02-11-2019, 11:54 PM   #9628
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Doesn't really have anything to do with brothers, has to do with making a hockey deal and addressing holes. This may seem a little outrageous, but you do get more than you give up. I love Tkachuk, but he's going to be good for ~35 goals and 75-80 points? In this deal you get back two guys who will get you 50+ goals, and 100+ points. Then you also get the left handed depth defenseman we're supposedly looking for. You get better depth and only give up one asset. The issue is the long term, but since people have been willing to trade away every single draft pick we own to improve our depth I see this as a hockey trade that accomplishes just that, but by only giving up one asset. Doesn't impact the window in any shape or form and makes us a better team IMO. My concern is the long term. Both Stone and Dzingel are 26, so should begin to regress in the next five to six years. If the goal is to win the Stanley Cup, this is a deal that makes sense and arguably pushes the team over the top outside of the crease.
Are you just going to completely ignore that Stone is a pending UFA? Sure if you can extend him then that is great but his current value is much lower than it would be if he were under contract, and the difference is very very significant. Same story on Dzingel. You don’t trade prime RFA years on a young ascending player to acquire two pending free agents.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:31 AM   #9629
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I'd be down to pick up stone or Duchene as a rental and try to sign them. And then trade tkachuk in the off-season to recoup picks and prospects.

Say we traded picks + prospects for Stone and re-signed him. And then had tkachuk and stone for the playoff run.


And then in the off-season, we traded tkachuk for couturier and a first.

Johnny-monahan-lindholm
Bennett-Couturier-Stone
Frolik-Backlund-Neal
Janko-Ryan-hathaway
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:43 AM   #9630
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Originally Posted by GullFoss View Post
I'd be down to pick up stone or Duchene as a rental and try to sign them. And then trade tkachuk in the off-season to recoup picks and prospects.

Say we traded picks + prospects for Stone and re-signed him. And then had tkachuk and stone for the playoff run.


And then in the off-season, we traded tkachuk for couturier and a first.

Johnny-monahan-lindholm
Bennett-Couturier-Stone
Frolik-Backlund-Neal
Janko-Ryan-hathaway
Oh, it's definitely that easy. Also definitely in our best interest to trade a unique 21 year old star player
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:45 AM   #9631
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Why are some people so fixated on trading Tkachuk, a 21-year-old star who is on pace for a 36-point improvement over last year? This is madness.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:46 AM   #9632
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You don't trade MT unless he is asking for over 8M or you get an offer you can't refuse

I take the 4 first rounders and start to wheel and deal them if he signs an offer sheet so that doesn't "scare" me

If you can get Stone or Duchene do it...figure out the cap in the summer after you have seen how guys play in the playoffs. If you are worried about money move other guys over Matty.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:49 AM   #9633
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You don't trade MT unless he is asking for over 8M or you get an offer you can't refuse

I take the 4 first rounders and start to wheel and deal them if he signs an offer sheet so that doesn't "scare" me

If you can get Stone or Duchene do it...figure out the cap in the summer after you have seen how guys play in the playoffs. If you are worried about money move other guys over Matty.
Well you can be sure he will ask for far more than 8 per year, as he should.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:12 AM   #9634
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They are also always on the hunt for cost control because of the Parise and Suter contracts, as well as others that have made them cost conscious. Getting back 2 rookie/2nd year players with upside would make them look, IMO.

Mangiapane is a prototypical rookie, showing the talent to stick, but learning the game. Czarnik showed more in Boston, and seems to just not be a perfect fit in Calgary for some reason. Do they hold a lot of value? Nope. Do they hold enough to get a mid 30s aged UFA? Yup.
I doubt that they hold that much value - Czarnik could have been had for free this past offseason and there is a reason as to why - he isn't good enough to overcome his disadvantages (height). Mangiapane may have some interest but he is one of those players who is of more value to his club than he is to of any other team.

The problem with getting players at the trade deadline is that teams will always overpay for what they are getting. Look at what Rick Nash got last year - if Eric Staal was traded for I would expect a similar return centered around a first round pick and a player like Lazar.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:03 AM   #9635
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I think that trading Tkachuk away to Ottawa is a bad move. I don't think it has anything to do with value, however - I would assume that Treliving would have received permission to at least hold preliminary talks with the players and their respective agents about signing extensions. For me, it is a bad move for two reasons:


1) Too big of a chemistry change. You don't 'shake-up' a team before the playoffs. Tkachuk seems to be a big part of the locker-room and culture.


2) Argue about just how good Tkachuk is, but no matter which side of the argument you fall on, I think everyone agrees that Tkachuk can often be a game-changer and can help you win games, and I bet especially during playoffs. He was unbelievable in London's run, and played injured for instance. You want that type of player in your lineup, and you want to add more of them, not merely exchange them for another game-changer.


IMO, Stone will probably end up being traded for:


2 first round picks
Prospect
Salary cap player


Calgary should be able to match that if they wanted to quite easily, if not beat it.


1st 2019
Dube (he is probably worth a late first - almost NHL-ready and looking like a sure-fire player which is what you hope for in a late first)
Kylington/Andersson - this hurts, but either of them are worth a late first
Frolik - cap space, but not negative hit, so that's a bonus


Rationale:
A late first is a late first. Ottawa isn't going to be getting any offers from teams who aren't sure they are making the playoffs. Probably 5-10 teams that think of themselves as contenders with Stone in the lineup.


Dube - He is a good prospect. Near NHL ready, he is fast, and it looks like he will be a solid 2-way player with strong underlying metrics. To me, that's worth a late first. It is really difficult to find a better player 20th overall or worse.


Kylington/Andersson - if they aren't worth a late first, I don't know who is. Young defencemen not getting their heads caved-in at this early stage is impressive, and they can move the puck well. Either of them look like they will become top 4 defencemen. Maybe a #2 guy down the road. What they have been doing is impressive.


Frolik - look at Ottawa. They are 2nd last in goals against. Remove Stone, and they will be last almost assuredly. Frolik will at least help replace Stone's defensive presence on the team, and his speed will fit in nicely on that team that likes to play with tempo. I actually would rather not lose Frolik for this upcoming playoffs as I think he is great depth and you can trust him against any line out there in the NHL - that's value, and he helps Calgary win. However, Calgary will need to clear some cap for next season, and in no way do I want Frolik's agent to start tweeting about Frolik being utilized on the 4th line once Stone pushes him off that 2nd line. That's a distraction I would rather not have on the team during the playoffs.


Calgary can also kick-in a prospect or two and/or a pick, and get back some depth on D - if not from Ottawa, then from some other team.



I think Treliving would be given permission to discuss an extension with Stone with him and his agent, I would assume, given that the acquisition price is fairly high. That's a lot to give up just for a single playoff run. This to me only makes sense if you re-sign Stone and have him for most if not all through the cup window.


I just don't see much sense in trading Tkachuk away as part of a package. I don't like Duchene enough to have to include Tkachuk. Duchene will probably go for a similar package, but I would rather not touch him. If Duchene could buy into becoming a 2-way player, that would be awesome, but he isn't.



I want game-changers on this team that are difficult to play against - maybe not necessarily big, physically dominating players (though that would be wonderful too!), but players with a high compete level all over the ice. Players that fight for the puck and hate to get beaten. Players that make other players on the team better. That's what I want Calgary to acquire. Nyquist, Zuccarello, Schenn (before St. Louis decided to be good again, making him unavailable... dammit!!), etc., would all be welcome additions if Stone is too costly. I am actually expecting more of these types of moves once their prices go down if Stone, Duchene, Dzingel, Hoffman and Panarin hit the market.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:50 AM   #9636
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I think that Minnesota is going to fade, and it's not a secret. They just lost Koivu for the season, and players have been called out. The owner isn't the sort who will be happy with possibly squeaking into the playoffs, so I think that would put Staal out there as trade bait.



They are also always on the hunt for cost control because of the Parise and Suter contracts, as well as others that have made them cost conscious. Getting back 2 rookie/2nd year players with upside would make them look, IMO.



Mangiapane is a prototypical rookie, showing the talent to stick, but learning the game. Czarnik showed more in Boston, and seems to just not be a perfect fit in Calgary for some reason. Do they hold a lot of value? Nope. Do they hold enough to get a mid 30s aged UFA? Yup.


If Minny traded Staal they would get at least a 2nd round pick plus, assuming that all the 1st round picks available for trade have gone for the Stones, Duchene’s etc.

Every team has lots of Mangiapane’s and Czarnik’s types. They wouldn’t be any more than throw ins in trades.

I doubt that Minny fades enough in the next short while to throw in the towel. And guys like Mangiapane and Czarnik certainly aren’t enough to entice them to do so.


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Old 02-12-2019, 06:18 AM   #9637
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Are you just going to completely ignore that Stone is a pending UFA? Sure if you can extend him then that is great but his current value is much lower than it would be if he were under contract, and the difference is very very significant. Same story on Dzingel. You don’t trade prime RFA years on a young ascending player to acquire two pending free agents.
And I qualified the trade suggestion by saying that both the UFAs needed to have signed extensions in the can before consummating any deal. The condition was there so it was obvious what we had for the foreseeable future. We wouldn't be giving away a great asset like Tkachuk without getting a great return that makes the team stronger through the window of opportunity. Learn to read.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:31 AM   #9638
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Frank Seravelli suggests that the Panthers may trade Jonathan Huberdeau in a deal with Columbus to pick up Panarin in a sign and trade. Jonthan Huberdeau has a full NMC that begins this July 1st which may be why they are trying to move him now to upgrade the roster. This allows Columbus to get a good player back for the playoffs and Huberdeau also has cost certainty with a relatively good deal for the next 4 years.

https://www.tsn.ca/panthers-huberdea...oard-1.1255876

I'm wary of this. Huberdeau isn't as talented as Panarin, but the gap isn't huge. But Huberdeau gives his all and is a tough competitor who has committed to Florida pretty well despite the lack of team success. Does a Panarin upgrade on offense push the Panthers over the top? Team defense and goaltending have been the biggest issues, and I don't see how Panarin fixes that. And yet, the Panthers could benefit from the addition of pure skill that Panarin brings. I also question Panarin's commitment to the NHL long term. I worry he pulls a Kovalchuk and goes home if he doesn't like the team he's signed to, which is a risk playing for the Panthers.

If you're the Panthers, do you trade Huberdeau in exchange for the chance to sign Panarin to a long term deal?
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:44 AM   #9639
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Why are some people so fixated on trading Tkachuk, a 21-year-old star who is on pace for a 36-point improvement over last year? This is madness.
Fixated? It was the first time I've ever seen a suggestion to do so. It was actually the only realistic trade suggestion made in the past month IMO. You have to give to get, and when you are talking about trying to acquire big game you need big assets. Treliving has already said he won't move the 1st for anything short term, so that means you need to move an asset of value to bring in what pushes you over the top. And it is not madness. Madness is suggesting that Ottawa is going to give up their best assets for a late first, a support player, and a cap dump. The reason I made the suggestion was to inject a little bit of realism into the discussion. Tkachuk is a keeper, IMO, but in the spirit of moving a future asset for the now, and go big game hunting, Tkachuk was an asset that was the best fit.

Put the shoe on the other foot. Say we're at the end of Gaudreau's contract and there is no indication he wants to sign here. Philadelphia comes knocking and says they have interest. What get's your attention? An Offer of a late first, Oskar Linblom, and Andrew MacDonald, or an offer of Nolan patrick/Sean Couturier? I think the answer is obvious. You have to give to get, and sometimes it hurts to get what you want. This was an example of that.

For what its worth, I would prefer that Treliving only tried to do something minor, like improve the goaltending and not do anything crazy, like selling off draft picks we desperately need to fill a pretty barren system. Lets see what this team has.
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Old 02-12-2019, 06:45 AM   #9640
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And I qualified the trade suggestion by saying that both the UFAs needed to have signed extensions in the can before consummating any deal. The condition was there so it was obvious what we had for the foreseeable future. We wouldn't be giving away a great asset like Tkachuk without getting a great return that makes the team stronger through the window of opportunity. Learn to read.
Ya I went back further and saw you had the silly idea that both players would be ‘signed to reasonable’ extensions before a trade, which is almost wholly unrealistic. Learn to come up with realistic ideas and not pie in the sky garbage.
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