Mike Smith's... woes? He blows? Eating crows? Who knows! (Also David Rittich exists!)

[Split98]

Originally Posted by 868904

This whole goaltending debacle stems from this management team betting on Gillies and Parsons.

They thought one of them would be ready to be the no. 1 now. They bet wrong. They never had faith in Rittich. They always saw him as the back up. They feel Rittich will just fail when they give him more starts.

They had too much faith in Gillies and therefore went with band-aid solutions like Elliot and Smith.

No one ever thought Gillies or Parsons would a NHL starter in 2018.

Smith was ideal, as we had goalies coming up through the system that should start challenging - but Smith was brought in to be our NHL starter until something like that pushed him out.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Split98

No one ever thought Gillies or Parsons would a NHL starter in 2018.

Smith was ideal, as we had goalies coming up through the system that should start challenging - but Smith was brought in to be our NHL starter until something like that pushed him out.

They hoped Gillies would at least be close in 2018 and would be ready in 2019, that's why they don't have a veteran goalie signed for 2019-2020.

They acquired Smith because they had faith in Gillies and gambled on him.

[Split98]

Originally Posted by 868904

They hoped Gillies would at least be close in 2018 and would be ready in 2019, that's why they don't have a veteran goalie signed for 2019-2020.

They acquired Smith because they had faith in Gillies and gambled on him.

I do think that Gillies is nowhere near where they thought he'd be by now, but I don't think anyone pretended to know who the 2019 starter was when going to be when they acquired Smith.

The way I saw it, they had Smith and Johnson that year with Gillies and co coming up through the system. At the time, the mindset was that someone as old as Smith would block development without being the core piece himself. The rational seemed to be that his 2 year contract looked would be a great window to have a proven starter, and someone to mentor the next group if they are ready to take over when that contract ends. If not, we'd have a capable starter that would likely sign short-term.

I don't think they looked around the NHL and thought 'who will best ease Gillies into the league?' which is what I'm assuming you mean


Edit: Now that I think of it, you might be closer to the truth than I'm giving you credit for. I think everything I'm thinking, but tailed with 'until X is ready' actually was batted around far more than patience through 2 years of Smith. Even at the outset.

[bax]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Flames braintrust really have bungled this. There was a chance a week or two ago to transition to a tandem system, with the hot hand staying in net. That way you ease Rittich into a larger role.

By throwing Smith in again and again in an effort to let him find his game, they've exposed and completely deflated him. And now they pretty much have no choice but to promote Rittich to starter, with the big pressure that comes with that role.

I actually disagree with you on this. I don't think the pressure on Rittich will be all that high. It would be different if Smith was playing great and went down with an injury.

At this point all Rittich has to do is go out there and be average (which he is more than capable of doing), As long as he does that the net will be his.

[motorcrosser]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

Hey, but Smith is really good with his stick work................for fishing the puck out of the net.

Ouch!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[ricosuave]

I'm back into this thread this afternoon and disappointed to see that Smith was not given his outright release or sent to Stockton.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

I'm back into this thread this afternoon and disappointed to see that Smith was not given his outright release or sent to Stockton.

Who exactly do you think would play backup?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 868904

This whole goaltending debacle stems from this management team betting on Gillies and Parsons.

They thought one of them would be ready to be the no. 1 now. They bet wrong. They never had faith in Rittich. They always saw him as the back up. They feel Rittich will just fail when they give him more starts.

They had too much faith in Gillies and therefore went with band-aid solutions like Elliot and Smith.

In fairness, those guys had impeccable pedigrees.

I disagree that the expectation was that Gillies wouldn't be in play by now. He's 24 and was drafted 6 years ago. That's when goalies should be coming into the NHL IMO. He has OK AHL numbers (I don't know NHLe numbers for goalies but my suspicion has always been that the lack of D and generally loose team play in the AHL saws off with the quality of shots in the NHL).

[868904]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In fairness, those guys had impeccable pedigrees.

I disagree that the expectation was that Gillies wouldn't be in play by now. He's 24 and was drafted 6 years ago. That's when goalies should be coming into the NHL IMO. He has OK AHL numbers (I don't know NHLe numbers for goalies but my suspicion has always been that the lack of D and generally loose team play in the AHL saws off with the quality of shots in the NHL).

I think we are thinking the same. If Gillies had progressed properly, he SHOULD be ready next year and SHOULD have been close enough this year to bring him in early, in case Smith implodes, which he has.

I don't think the Flames saw this type of implosion from both Smith AND Gillies.

It was a tough debate going back into the Summer. I think half the board thought the Flames should have gone out and acquired a veteran goalie who could be a 1A/1B type like Hutton or Halak in case Smith falters.

The other half of the board thought we needed to give Gillies/Rittich the back up spot and didn't want them blocked. The Flames gambled with this decision and now it's up to Rittich to save the day.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by 868904

I think we are thinking the same. If Gillies had progressed properly, he SHOULD be ready next year and SHOULD have been close enough this year to bring him in early, in case Smith implodes, which he has.

I don't think the Flames saw this type of implosion from both Smith AND Gillies.

It was a tough debate going back into the Summer. I think half the board thought the Flames should have gone out and acquired a veteran goalie who could be a 1A/1B type like Hutton or Halak in case Smith falters.

The other half of the board thought we needed to give Gillies/Rittich the back up spot and didn't want them blocked. The Flames gambled with this decision and now it's up to Rittich to save the day.

Hopefully Rittich will be as good as Halak or Hutton.

There was also debate around the Smith acquisition about other goalies - Bishop, Fleury, etc. But that debate always assumed a lot about what would be paid. It reminded me a lot of the Nylander trade proposals.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Who exactly do you think would play backup?

Don't care.

This guy's 5-hole is a lot smaller.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Don't care.

This guy's 5-hole is a lot smaller.

I'd honestly LOVE to see a true, hard fought game played with this at both ends of the ice

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Don't care.

Well it's fine to be glib, but seriously, Calgary has no one to call up in your scenario. So what's the diff between sending him down and getting no one up and simply sitting him on the bench for a long time?

[bax]

Also, this thread title comes off as more than a tad bit ridiculous to me.

Sorry, Scorp I don't mean to call you out, but for someone studying to be a journalist I think it would be beneficial to take a deep breathe, step away from the situation, calm down, and then evaluate.

What is dumping Smith for a 7th round pick going to accomplish? It means we have to call up one of our struggling AHL goalies? Who are both currently injured?

Realistically what needs to happen is that Smith gets a week off from game time and Peters gives the net to Rittich. Start him 4-6 games in a row and then re-evaluate then. So on and so forth. Smith has sucked, but there is no need to run him out of town. He's a greater asset hoping he can tweak his game in practice with some significant time off and find his stride again than dumping him for nothing.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by 868904

I think we are thinking the same. If Gillies had progressed properly, he SHOULD be ready next year and SHOULD have been close enough this year to bring him in early, in case Smith implodes, which he has.



I don't think the Flames saw this type of implosion from both Smith AND Gillies.



It was a tough debate going back into the Summer. I think half the board thought the Flames should have gone out and acquired a veteran goalie who could be a 1A/1B type like Hutton or Halak in case Smith falters.



The other half of the board thought we needed to give Gillies/Rittich the back up spot and didn't want them blocked. The Flames gambled with this decision and now it's up to Rittich to save the day.

Just playing devils advocate here but lots of goalies have had questionable starts to their careers and turned out good.

Rask: similar numbers to Gillies in the AHL their first 2 seasons. 3.25 / .886 in his first few starts in the NHL, Gillies actually has better stats but Rask was already a bonafide backup by 24 years old while Gillies played 3 full seasons in college.

Hellebuyck: both were lights out in the NCAA (Hellebuyck with slightly better numbers) followed by average to good numbers in the AHL. Hellebuyck has a very good rookie season but then fell off his sophomore year, posting a nearly identical GAA compared to Gillies rookie year (2.88). Hellebuyck only did 2 years in the NCAA and is an established starter by 25 years old (Gillies is currently 24).

Varlamov: up and down numbers in the AHL to start his career, 2.40 -> 1.95 -> 3.36. His first full season in the NHL (24 years old) he posted 3.02 / .903.

Bishop: great 3 years in college, first few AHL years he was up and down, GAA anywhere from 2.26 to 2.81. Average NHL numbers his first few years, didn’t post good numbers until he was 26 years old.

Bobrovsky: okay numbers in the KHL, similar to Gillies in the AHL, poor to average rookie/sophomore years (2.59 -> 3.02), didn’t really establish himself until he was 25.

Holtby: good in the AHL, great in limited starts his first few years, big drop off in his 24 year old season (2.85 GAA) rebounded as a full time starter at 25 years old.

There still lots of potential in Gillies and Parsons.

[jlh2640]

This guy has negative value at this point.

[Brouhaha]

I for one was hoping Smith would come into this season with a solid start to the campaign. For a few reasons, I believed this would be the case. One, the disappointing end to the season last year where the team crashed and burned down the stretch. When Smith was traded here, I'm sure he thought this was a much better situation that what he had in Arizona. He wants to be part of the turnaround for this team in a new season with lots of new faces. He's a veteran. He wants to win. The team is taking time to adjust to a new system which has placed Smith in some difficult spots during games, sure. However, his numbers have to get to more league avg. type numbers. There are worse teams than the Flames in the NHL. Outside of maybe Murray in Pitt., every team has been getting better goaltending on a more consistent basis. I do not have a stats sheet in front of me, but concerning starters, Smith is nowhere near the upper tier of the league. Most would be happy, as has been stated several times, league avg would be great.

Two, this is a show-me year for him. He's playing for a new contract, or at least another contract in the NHL. The numbers don't lie. His stats are not going to impress anyone. They are abysmal. He and everyone in the hockey world know it. I'm not saying this is his focus, but it is a reality for Smith at this point in his career. He wants to win now and he's playing for a job beyond this season. I don't know. I thought this would be a motivator for him. Perhaps it is something adding pressure on him to perform. I doubt this is accurate. Again, I thought this would be something that would lead to a much better performance from Smith.

I am all for giving players chances to work out of their funk, but when you're a starter in the NHL, and the way the league is now with a high number of 3-point games, giving away points (due to poor goaltending) already makes it more difficult to make the playoffs. Add to that the season the Flames just had under Gulutzan, it's understandable the lack of patience fans and media would have for consistently poor performances from individuals on the team and the team overall.

The go-ahead and eventual game-winner vs Montreal was another one of those "you have got to be kidding!" moments I have experienced as a Flames fan. You know that feeling where you are a fan of the only team where that kind of garbage play would happen. No other team has this level of play from their goaltender. Why Rittich doesn't get least a 50-50 split moving forward these next bunch of games would be very suspect to me. A few other teams seem to allow their backups to play more often with their starter faltering. With the way this season has started for Smith and the Flames, it is certainly time give Rittich a run of games to see if his numbers are more of a fluke or of a goaltender progressing to where is ready for more responsibilities on this team.

His numbers are certainly worthy of an honest look. Let's face it, if Rittich was putting up Smith-like numbers, he'd be back in the AHL (barring injuries of course). Give the kid more chances. He's earning them so far.

Go Flames Go!

[FlamesAddiction]

The thing that bothers me the most is that both Raanta and Halak bounced around so much despite showing potential. I can't help but think the Flames could have easily landed one of them. Maybe they tried, I don't know. But if they didn't, what an opportunity lost.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The thing that bothers me the most is that both Raanta and Halak bounced around so much despite showing potential. I can't help but think the Flames could have easily landed one of them. Maybe they tried, I don't know. But if they didn't, what an opportunity lost.

Was it last year Halak was on waivers? I think the Flames didn't put in a claim.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Just playing devils advocate here but lots of goalies have had questionable starts to their careers and turned out good.

Rask: similar numbers to Gillies in the AHL their first 2 seasons. 3.25 / .886 in his first few starts in the NHL, Gillies actually has better stats but Rask was already a bonafide backup by 24 years old while Gillies played 3 full seasons in college.

Hellebuyck: both were lights out in the NCAA (Hellebuyck with slightly better numbers) followed by average to good numbers in the AHL. Hellebuyck has a very good rookie season but then fell off his sophomore year, posting a nearly identical GAA compared to Gillies rookie year (2.88). Hellebuyck only did 2 years in the NCAA and is an established starter by 25 years old (Gillies is currently 24).

Varlamov: up and down numbers in the AHL to start his career, 2.40 -> 1.95 -> 3.36. His first full season in the NHL (24 years old) he posted 3.02 / .903.

Bishop: great 3 years in college, first few AHL years he was up and down, GAA anywhere from 2.26 to 2.81. Average NHL numbers his first few years, didn’t post good numbers until he was 26 years old.

Bobrovsky: okay numbers in the KHL, similar to Gillies in the AHL, poor to average rookie/sophomore years (2.59 -> 3.02), didn’t really establish himself until he was 25.

Holtby: good in the AHL, great in limited starts his first few years, big drop off in his 24 year old season (2.85 GAA) rebounded as a full time starter at 25 years old.

There still lots of potential in Gillies and Parsons.

Goalies generally see "easier" workloads in the NHL in terms of chance quality, though the shot quality is obviously higher. The game is so different the numbers shouldn't be expected to mean much

Gillies never quite passed my eye test so I'm not overly optimistic there, but Parsons looks legit as they come and his numbers are probably a mirage. Rittich is another guy who really passed the eye test in the AHL and while his numbers backed it few seemed to buy the hype because they think there's a such thing as pedigree, when for goalies there really isn't (there was once a time Jonathan Quick was being developed to hopefully back up future starter Jonathan Bernier - ponder THAT)

Not to go off on a tangent but goaltending is a position where you're probably better off trusting in voodoo than trying to rationalize. Even Matt Murray is having a brutal season. Steve Mason was once a Calder winner, and then a few years later third in the NHL in SV% behind the league MVP and Dubnykbut here he is out of the league