Bus transit to Airdrie, Cochrane and others coming soon?

[HotHotHeat]

I enjoy reading about people's anger towards full park and ride lots. If there's no parking, don't take your car?

[DESS]

Originally Posted by St Loomis

As far as I know the entire thing is provincially owned and operated.

Anybody know for sure with a link to proof? Not doubting you dude, I just need to compile everything I can.

Even if that is the case, we'll have to find a way to limit/charge residents from satellite cities for entering Calgary during rush hour. I'm quite confident it can be done.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by DESS

I have to do more research on the subject, as I'm not sure what proportion of Deerfoot trail is paid for by Calgary municiapl taxes (I'm assuming some, but I could be wrong). Regardless, there are solutions to the Airdrie problem, and I think they need to be persued aggressively.

As mentioned, you are wrong. Highway 2, including Deerfoot Trail within Calgary, is provincially funded and maintained. An Airdrie driver's taxes are going to maintain the road as well.

Also, the north end gridlock is the result of two issues: The bottleneck at Beddington, where you have five lanes of traffic merging into three, and the complete lack of a useful alternate route into downtown from the north. Everyone has to take Deerfoot, regardless of what community they start from.

Frankly, your "lets screw over people from out of town" attitude is little more than misdirected anger. When you get down to it, Airdrie is not much farther out than Westwinds or Coventry Hills. Why don't you propose tolling people entering Deerfoot from the outskirts of the city itself as well?

[droopydrew19]

Originally Posted by DESS

I'm working on a petition to charge Airdrie drivers a $15 toll per trip into Calgary made between 6:30 a.m. and 9 a.m. Monday - Friday. If they choose to exit Calgary between 3:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m., it's another $15. It is obsene we let people from another city obstruct our roads while dodging our civic taxes and hampering our own citizens' abilities to travel freely.

OK then we will slap a toll booth at Balzac for all you people who want to go north and I am sure Cochrane can put one up on Highway 2 as well. Why stop there... Okotoks! get in on the action... you too Chestermere.

Hell lets start taxing all the people who came from Saskatchewan or the Maritimes for jobs. Without them I am sure you could walk down Deerfoot Dess. Good luck on your petition.

[Resolute 14]

As far as links to the provincial control goes, it took me about a minute to find it...

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/804.htm

Deerfoot Trail is the major north/south transportation route through the City of Calgary and is part of the North/South Trade Corridor. It is maintained and upgraded by Alberta Transportation.

Citizens of Airdrie, Okotoks and every other community outside city limits have every right to use a provincial highway, regardless of the whining of Calgarians.

[BOSSY]

Originally Posted by DESS

Not always. Southbound Deerfoot is completely gridlocked and usually at a virtual standstill before the first Calgary exit at Country Hills BLVD in the North because of people coming into the City from Airdrie.

I'm working on a petition to charge Airdrie drivers a $15 toll per trip into Calgary made between 6:30 a.m. and 9 a.m. Monday - Friday. If they choose to exit Calgary between 3:30 p.m. and 5:30 p.m., it's another $15. It is obsene we let people from another city obstruct our roads while dodging our civic taxes and hampering our own citizens' abilities to travel freely.

I have to do more research on the subject, as I'm not sure what proportion of Deerfoot trail is paid for by Calgary municiapl taxes (I'm assuming some, but I could be wrong). Regardless, there are solutions to the Airdrie problem, and I think they need to be persued aggressively.

Sounds like there may be similar problems with Okotoks, Chestermere and Cochrane, which I had assumed, but as I said I'm still at the early stages of putting my proposal together. I'll make an effort to draft my petition to incorporate these parisite cities/towns as well.

The toll should be fairly economical to enforce. I'm thinking a multi-nova sort of system that can flag license plates from these satellite communitites. The commuters would receive a bill at the end of each month.



The goal of this plan is to encourage these people to take one or more of the following steps:

• adjust their work hours out of peak times
• work from home
• carpool to share costs

If you guys are interested, I'll post my petition package here in a few weeks for comments/feedback. I will also be circulating petitions for people to sign and send in to the appropriate authorities once my research is complete. Normally I wouldn't have posted this on here as I don't have all my information straight, but I see no harm in letting you guys know that there are people looking seriously at this issue in hopes of coming up with an immediate (relatively speaking, we are talking about government lol) fix.

I hope this doesn't interfer with your project to have dogs banned...

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by DESS

Snipped for brevity of craziness

Seriously? You'd make a provincial highway a toll road but only for those people who don't live in Calgary? Puff, puff, pass. Puff, puff, pass.

[St Loomis]

Originally Posted by DESS

Anybody know for sure with a link to proof? Not doubting you dude, I just need to compile everything I can.

Even if that is the case, we'll have to find a way to limit/charge residents from satellite cities for entering Calgary during rush hour. I'm quite confident it can be done.

Perhaps the 100 percent owned and operated thing is slightly misleading. Deerfoot trail is 100 percent operated by the provincial government, edit: thanks resolute 14 for finding the link


I would have to disagree with your entire idea. There is more to deerfoot trail (or any road for that matter) than the individual sitting in traffic in the morning. All provincial highways, QEII, both ringroads, etc., are mandated to focus on goods movement. The individual driver is not the concern of those who make decisions about the roads.

If you were to introduce a toll you would create a huge problem with goods movement which would likely end up hurting Calgary's economy drastically.Productivity would go down (you'd have to wait until after 9 for a shipment for example), and operating cost for shippers would increase.

Beyond the straight up goods movement portion you then have to factor in the city's which you propose to "shut out" of the city during those hours. They do, particularly Airdrie but the others too, have very favourable tax environments for light industrial businesses. They also have a high proportion of lower income families who work in those areas. Add this up and you could have a situation where businesses move from the city to the outlying areas due to the availability of labour and cheaper operating environments (this is obviously a speculative scenario btw).

Beyond this you have to consider social equity. Is shutting people out from a making a living fair? Assuming you lived in one of the satellite communities would you think it is fair to pay a high cost toll everyday?


Now, this is not to say that I think toll roads are not a bad idea. In fact I think they are a fantastic idea, however interrupting the flow of goods in the city could have huge ramifications.

I would suggest that toll roads that choose haves and have nots are a problem from a social standpoint. I would then also argue that everyone, Calgarian, Chestermerian(?), Airdriite(?), etc all do not pay the real cost of using roads on a daily basis. If you want to throw a toll on a road make it equitable and fair, everyone can pay it.

I could go on for a while about this but I am going to stop now!

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

As mentioned, you are wrong. Highway 2, including Deerfoot Trail within Calgary, is provincially funded and maintained. An Airdrie driver's taxes are going to maintain the road as well.

First of all, I'm not wrong. I said in my original post that I didn't know how Deerfoot was funded.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Also, the north end gridlock is the result of two issues: The bottleneck at Beddington, where you have five lanes of traffic merging into three, and the complete lack of a useful alternate route into downtown from the north. Everyone has to take Deerfoot, regardless of what community they start from.

Well there wouldn't be a gridlock if there weren't people from Airdrie on Deerfoot.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Frankly, your "lets screw over people from out of town" attitude is little more than misdirected anger. When you get down to it, Airdrie is not much farther out than Westwinds or Coventry Hills. Why don't you propose tolling people entering Deerfoot from the outskirts of the city itself as well?

Yes but Coventry Hills is within Calgary, and people in Coventry Hills pay taxes to the City of Calgary. People who live in Coventry Hills are Calgarian. Airdrie has its own municipal government and citizens of Airdrie pay taxes to that government, not to the City of Calgary.

Look, even if Deerfoot is 100% funded by the Province (still would like to see a link to proof for my own due diligence and so we can be positive about this in the discussion going forward), it doesn't change the fact that two times everyday thousands of people from another city flock to Calgary and jam our roads, making it difficult for our own citizens to get around.

If Deerfoot is owned provincially, we will just have to change the way we discourage travel by Airdrie folks, but it doesn't mean we will just give up. And I'm not angry. I just see an opportunity to right a wrong.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by droopydrew19

OK then we will slap a toll booth at Balzac for all you people who want to go north and I am sure Cochrane can put one up on Highway 2 as well. Why stop there... Okotoks! get in on the action... you too Chestermere.

Hell lets start taxing all the people who came from Saskatchewan or the Maritimes for jobs. Without them I am sure you could walk down Deerfoot Dess. Good luck on your petition.

I'm talking about fixing actual problems. Your proposal is spiteful.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by BOSSY

I hope this doesn't interfer with your project to have dogs banned...

I've got time.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Why don't you guys shut the hell up with the complaining about putting the LRT below ground. Why don't you educate yourself on why they didn't go underground.

because they were too cheap. Again, piss poor planning and strategy. Some fools would have you believe it's because of "the water table" or some other such nonsense. Total crock.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

As mentioned, you are wrong. Highway 2, including Deerfoot Trail within Calgary, is provincially funded and maintained. An Airdrie driver's taxes are going to maintain the road as well.

Also, the north end gridlock is the result of two issues: The bottleneck at Beddington, where you have five lanes of traffic merging into three, and the complete lack of a useful alternate route into downtown from the north. Everyone has to take Deerfoot, regardless of what community they start from.

Frankly, your "lets screw over people from out of town" attitude is little more than misdirected anger. When you get down to it, Airdrie is not much farther out than Westwinds or Coventry Hills. Why don't you propose tolling people entering Deerfoot from the outskirts of the city itself as well?

I'm surprised he hasn't directed his anger toward people like me who live in High River.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by St Loomis

Perhaps the 100 percent owned and operated thing is slightly misleading. Deerfoot trail is 100 percent operated by the provincial government, edit: thanks resolute 14 for finding the link


I would have to disagree with your entire idea. There is more to deerfoot trail (or any road for that matter) than the individual sitting in traffic in the morning. All provincial highways, QEII, both ringroads, etc., are mandated to focus on goods movement. The individual driver is not the concern of those who make decisions about the roads.

If you were to introduce a toll you would create a huge problem with goods movement which would likely end up hurting Calgary's economy drastically.Productivity would go down (you'd have to wait until after 9 for a shipment for example), and operating cost for shippers would increase.

Beyond the straight up goods movement portion you then have to factor in the city's which you propose to "shut out" of the city during those hours. They do, particularly Airdrie but the others too, have very favourable tax environments for light industrial businesses. They also have a high proportion of lower income families who work in those areas. Add this up and you could have a situation where businesses move from the city to the outlying areas due to the availability of labour and cheaper operating environments (this is obviously a speculative scenario btw).

Beyond this you have to consider social equity. Is shutting people out from a making a living fair? Assuming you lived in one of the satellite communities would you think it is fair to pay a high cost toll everyday?


Now, this is not to say that I think toll roads are not a bad idea. In fact I think they are a fantastic idea, however interrupting the flow of goods in the city could have huge ramifications.

I would suggest that toll roads that choose haves and have nots are a problem from a social standpoint. I would then also argue that everyone, Calgarian, Chestermerian(?), Airdriite(?), etc all do not pay the real cost of using roads on a daily basis. If you want to throw a toll on a road make it equitable and fair, everyone can pay it.

I could go on for a while about this but I am going to stop now!

Thanks for finding that info - much appreciated.

I don't see how the flow of goods would be disrupted in any way with my proposal. This is a toll for commuter traffic only. If anything, it'll help the flow of traffic and the flow of goods tremendously. Maybe I misread your post or maybe you misread the basic outline of my proposal, but I'm not talking about shutting the roads down to traffic. I want to increase flow.

There are a lot of creative ways we can add to this idea to make it work for people in the parasite communities, as well. Eliminate tolls for carpoolers, no tolls for busses, etc.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by JustAnotherGuy

Why don't you guys shut the hell up with the complaining about putting the LRT below ground. Why don't you educate yourself on why they didn't go underground.

they put it above ground because it wouldn't be ready in time for the olympics, this was a result of POOR PLANNING!

Originally Posted by St Loomis

Let me think, I can put up a few good reasons of the top of my head:

1) Capacity - Subway systems typically hold huge capacities of people, something around 45000 people per direction per peak hour. Whereas LRT holds 30000 per direction per peak hour. Calgary does not have the population density or density of jobs (except for downtown) to support the larger capacity. Definitely in 1980 when the downtown track was completed they did not have the capacity and we still do not.

2)Cost - Subway systems typically cost about 100 million dollars per kilometer of track and then another 4-8 million for each car. LRT costs Calgary 15 million per kilometer of track and 4 million per car.

3)Downtown traffic - it has been city policy to not increase downtowns capacity for cars since 1960s. Opening up a road on 7th ave would have done exactly that and then further reduced reliance on transit....however if it were made a pedestrian street it would be a different story.

ok so...

1) more people would take the train if they could get on it! and even if the number of riders would be lower now, we'd be actually planning for(better sit down for this one).... THE FUTURE! should we really go through 10 more years of this crap before doing something?

2) cost? they are spending millions on fancy bridges, ring roads with no competion date in sight, and this east village revival/gentrification/make all the politicians who own property there rich project, i would much rather my tax dollars go to something that makes sense

3) since there are no new access roads into downtown being created by simply creating a subway, the current traffic would only be less congested, the people who decide to now drive because they think its better would be counter balanced by the people who would take a viable form of public transit to work

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by DESS

Well there wouldn't be a gridlock if there weren't people from Airdrie on Deerfoot.

Lets examine that, shall we?

First, according too this from 2005, about 39% of Airdrie residents over age 15 commute to Calgary for work or school. Now, here is the 2008 Airdrie census. Assuming the 4500 or so people who did not respond to the census are representative of the age breakdown of those who did respond, that represents about 28,000 Airdronians over the age of 15.

Thus, if 39% of that population commutes to Calgary, that represents approximately 11,000 people commuting to work.

Next, lets assume that commuters average about two people per vehicle. There are a lot who drive singly in their cars, but there are also a few packed buses that go downtown every day, so this seems a fair estimate. That would equal approximately 5500 cars per day from Airdrie.

According to the City of Calgary, using 2006 data (most recent available), 134,000 cars per day, on average, pass Deerfoot at McKnight Blvd. Since those 5500 Airdrie cars are going both directions, Airdronians account for 11,000 of that total, or 8.2% of total volume. The real number will, in fact, be less because many Airdrie drivers get off Deerfoot at Country Hills to get to the C-train. Also because I am using 2008 Airdrie population with a 2006 traffic pattern. Airdrie is growing hugely, so using 2006 population with that map means the actual percentage of drivers at that point from Airdrie might be as low as 6.5%.

By comparison, 48,000 vehicles per day are reaching Deerfoot at McKnight from Beddington - 35.9% of the total traffic flow at that point. Thus, drivers from NW Calgary alone are responsible for over four times the traffic volume that Airdronians are.

Thus, I rest my case. The traffic problems you suffer through every morning are because of the bottleneck at Beddington, not because people from Airdrie are stealing your spot on Deerfoot.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by habernac

because they were too cheap. Again, piss poor planning and strategy. Some fools would have you believe it's because of "the water table" or some other such nonsense. Total crock.

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

they put it above ground because it wouldn't be ready in time for the olympics, this was a result of POOR PLANNING!



ok so...

1) more people would take the train if they could get on it! and even if the number of riders would be lower now, we'd be actually planning for(better sit down for this one).... THE FUTURE! should we really go through 10 more years of this crap before doing something?

2) cost? they are spending millions on fancy bridges, ring roads with no competion date in sight, and this east village revival/gentrification/make all the politicians who own property there rich project, i would much rather my tax dollars go to something that makes sense

3) since there are no new access roads into downtown being created by simply creating a subway, the current traffic would only be less congested, the people who decide to now drive because they think its better would be counter balanced by the people who would take a viable form of public transit to work

Do you see what system Edmonton has? They're just finally moving southwards now out of downtown when their system before only went to Rexal Place from Downtown. And it was built the same time as Calgary LRT was I believe. You guys best be thankful that Calgary went the way it did otherwise we would only have LRT in downtown to maybe to Chinook still probably seeing how slow this city is in funding and consturcution. It's playing major catchup right now.

And if you guys aren't aware, they are in the study phrase of getting a subway into a reality here. So while the LRT system is expanding to the south, SE soon, and then North Central, the Stephen Avenue Subway might be getting built around very soon. Maybe even by then end of West LRT construction.

Some things could be better with the LRT sure. They really need to fix up the NE leg between McKnight and Memorial. Street crossings on a major street is dumb and evil for left turns. But Calgary Tranist has worked for this city and as poor as planning as you may think, it's getting the job done and is very successful compare to a major cities in North America.

[DESS]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Lets examine that, shall we?

First, according too this from 2005, about 39% of Airdrie residents over age 15 commute to Calgary for work or school. Now, here is the 2008 Airdrie census. Assuming the 4500 or so people who did not respond to the census are representative of the age breakdown of those who did respond, that represents about 28,000 Airdronians over the age of 15.

Thus, if 39% of that population commutes to Calgary, that represents approximately 11,000 people commuting to work.

Next, lets assume that commuters average about two people per vehicle. There are a lot who drive singly in their cars, but there are also a few packed buses that go downtown every day, so this seems a fair estimate. That would equal approximately 5500 cars per day from Airdrie.

According to the City of Calgary, using 2006 data (most recent available), 134,000 cars per day, on average, pass Deerfoot at McKnight Blvd. Since those 5500 Airdrie cars are going both directions, Airdronians account for 11,000 of that total, or 8.2% of total volume. The real number will, in fact, be less because many Airdrie drivers get off Deerfoot at Country Hills to get to the C-train. Also because I am using 2008 Airdrie population with a 2006 traffic pattern. Airdrie is growing hugely, so using 2006 population with that map means the actual percentage of drivers at that point from Airdrie might be as low as 6.5%.

By comparison, 48,000 vehicles per day are reaching Deerfoot at McKnight from Beddington - 35.9% of the total traffic flow at that point. Thus, drivers from NW Calgary alone are responsible for over four times the traffic volume that Airdronians are.

Thus, I rest my case. The traffic problems you suffer through every morning are because of the bottleneck at Beddington, not because people from Airdrie are stealing your spot on Deerfoot.

You rested your case by proving that less people from Airdrie are on Deerfoot than people from Calgary. I'm pretty sure everybody knew that already so you've just spent a lot of time proving the obvious. lol

Reducing traffic flow on the northern section of Deerfoot through the bottleneck by 6.5% - 8.2% sounds like support for my case. So I guess thank you for helping me draft my proposal...some very useful numbers there.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by DESS

You rested your case by proving that less people from Airdrie are on Deerfoot than people from Calgary. I'm pretty sure everybody knew that already so you've just spent a lot of time proving the obvious. lol

Reducing traffic flow on the northern section of Deerfoot through the bottleneck by 6.5% - 8.2% sounds like support for my case. So I guess thank you for helping me draft my proposal...some very useful numbers there.

Not only that, I would say people from Airdrie would tend to be more "hickish" and therefore have cars that are less environmentally friendly and older than Calgarians, I think it might become and epidemic if action not taken.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by DESS

You rested your case by proving that less people from Airdrie are on Deerfoot than people from Calgary. I'm pretty sure everybody knew that already so you've just spent a lot of time proving the obvious. lol

Reducing traffic flow on the northern section of Deerfoot through the bottleneck by 6.5% - 8.2% sounds like support for my case. So I guess thank you for helping me draft my proposal...some very useful numbers there.

Except those are 24 hour averages, not rush hour averages.

The point is, and one which you have not even attempted to counter, is that your argument that there would be no gridlock without Airdrie drivers is dead wrong.

Lets see your numbers that prove your argument. Or, are you just whining because your drive isn't as perfect as you want it to be, and you prefer to lash out randomly?