[Trade] Sabres acquire Ben Bishop from Stars

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s the insurance, not the no playing that’s important.

The no playing is just as important to Buffalo.

If he was playing, the insurance is not paying his salary and they need to pay real dollars. There would have been no reason for them to do this deal.

Insurance is irrelevant if he’s not injured.

No one would do a similar deal for Monny, even though his contract is insured . Why not? Because he’s expected to play.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The no playing is just as important to Buffalo.

If he was playing, the insurance is not paying his salary and they need to pay real dollars. There would have been no reason for them to do this deal.

Insurance is irrelevant if he’s not injured.

No one would do a similar deal for Monny, even though his contract is insured . Why not? Because he’s expected to play.

So it’s the insurance, thanks for confirming.

I doubt Monahan is insured either. Not a lot of players are.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s the insurance, not the no playing that’s important.

Without the “no playing” there is no insurance. Insurance only covers his salary if he can’t play.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by IamNotKenKing

Without the “no playing” there is no insurance. Insurance only covers his salary if he can’t play.

Right. But most NHL players don’t have it - like Horton for example. I’m still surprised Bishop had it with his injury history.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Right. But most NHL players don’t have it - like Horton for example. I’m still surprised Bishop had it with his injury history.

I read somewhere that the league has a sort of group policy with all teams woven into their partnership with Geico(I think?). Each team can (must?) have like 4-6 contracts insured.

Did Bishop's injuries really pre-date this deal? As soon as he left the 3-goalie situation in OTT he played 63 62 61 39 reg season games before joining the stars...

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Right. But most NHL players don’t have it - like Horton for example. I’m still surprised Bishop had it with his injury history.

Insurance don't cover re-existing injuries. Bishop's career ending injury was new.

We know Bishop had it, or the deal makes zero sense otherwise.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Insurance don't cover re-existing injuries. Bishop's career ending injury was new.

We know Bishop had it, or the deal makes zero sense otherwise.

You can’t even get insurance if you end to be injured is my point. Most team have maybe 6 guys covered. I’m surprised in Dallas’ case it was Bishop.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You can’t even get insurance if you end to be injured is my point. Most team have maybe 6 guys covered. I’m surprised in Dallas’ case it was Bishop.

You can get insurance even if you've been injured in the past, it just does not cover pre-existing conditions.

For example, a player who has broken it's leg would still be eligible for for injuries relating to concussions.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Insurance don't cover re-existing injuries. Bishop's career ending injury was new.

We know Bishop had it, or the deal makes zero sense otherwise.

You keep saying this, but it isn't necessarily true. It would be $1.5M cash savings for BUF compared to most other ways they'd reach the floor. If they waited until July 1 it would become $2.5M. It would probably require a ~4th instead of a 7th in those cases, but it would still be a budget friendly deal for the acquiring team (and there aren't as many front-loaded deals out there as there used to be).

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The no playing is just as important to Buffalo.

If he was playing, the insurance is not paying his salary and they need to pay real dollars. There would have been no reason for them to do this deal.

Insurance is irrelevant if he’s not injured.

No one would do a similar deal for Monny, even though his contract is insured . Why not? Because he’s expected to play.

I bet there would be several takers for Monahan+7th. I bet he generates a modest (albeit conditional) return.

Look at a team like ANA - they need to spend some money, but don't want to handcuff themselves with term (and post-apex years when they enter their window). Their big needs are toughness/leadership/experience, a middle pair D, and a big C who's unafraid to go to tough spots.

They'll probably kick tires on guys like Kadri, Copp, Forsberg, Chiarot - but I doubt they'll want to overpay.

Monahan+Lucic for John Moore

$7M, 11.625 AAV (after Lucic SB paid)
vs.
$2.25, 2.75 AAV/1.625 if buried

CGY saves 10M on cap and gets a longshot depth D if he happens to get healthy.

ANA gets a nuclear deterrent to protect their boys, a middle 6 C - and 2 possible TDL assets (otherwise only Shattenkirk/Derek Grant).

It's worth noting that Getzlaf and Rakell were their leading TOI F's (both now gone) - they seem to be intentional in not overplaying their young guys.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

You keep saying this, but it isn't necessarily true. It would be $1.5M cash savings for BUF compared to most other ways they'd reach the floor. If they waited until July 1 it would become $2.5M. It would probably require a ~4th instead of a 7th in those cases, but it would still be a budget friendly deal for the acquiring team (and there aren't as many front-loaded deals out there as there used to be).



I bet there would be several takers for Monahan+7th. I bet he generates a modest (albeit conditional) return.

Look at a team like ANA - they need to spend some money, but don't want to handcuff themselves with term (and post-apex years when they enter their window). Their big needs are toughness/leadership/experience, a middle pair D, and a big C who's unafraid to go to tough spots.

They'll probably kick tires on guys like Kadri, Copp, Forsberg, Chiarot - but I doubt they'll want to overpay.

Monahan+Lucic for John Moore

$7M, 11.625 AAV (after Lucic SB paid)
vs.
$2.25, 2.75 AAV/1.625 if buried

CGY saves 10M on cap and gets a longshot depth D if he happens to get healthy.

ANA gets a nuclear deterrent to protect their boys, a middle 6 C - and 2 possible TDL assets (otherwise only Shattenkirk/Derek Grant).

It's worth noting that Getzlaf and Rakell were their leading TOI F's (both now gone) - they seem to be intentional in not overplaying their young guys.

I guess time will tell, but I can't imagine any reasonable scenario where someone will take on Lucic's and Monny's cap hits without a big sweetner.

Cap is King these days, and there are always all sorts of veterans available on one year deals, which would be more palatable than taking on Lucic and Monny. Actually Lucic if he waives is in a different category for a number of reasons, so that's a completely different question.

Anyway, Buffalo has reported that Bishop was insured, and their cash outlay is $700,000.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

You can get insurance even if you've been injured in the past, it just does not cover pre-existing conditions.

For example, a player who has broken it's leg would still be eligible for for injuries relating to concussions.

Yeah, thanks tips. I know. But Bishop has had ongoing joint issues. And insurers would normally balk at insuring him. So even if the last injury was unrelated, that wouldn’t have factored in the decision.

And Bishop’s injury first arose in 2019, and was diagnosed as degenerative then.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...bres-1.6485344

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, thanks tips. I know. But Bishop has had ongoing joint issues. And insurers would normally balk at insuring him. So even if the last injury was unrelated, that wouldn’t have factored in the decision.

And Bishop’s injury first arose in 2019, and was diagnosed as degenerative then.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...bres-1.6485344

He signed this deal in May 2017.

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I guess time will tell, but I can't imagine any reasonable scenario where someone will take on Lucic's and Monny's cap hits without a big sweetner.

Cap is King these days, and there are always all sorts of veterans available on one year deals, which would be more palatable than taking on Lucic and Monny. Actually Lucic if he waives is in a different category for a number of reasons, so that's a completely different question.

Anyway, Buffalo has reported that Bishop was insured, and their cash outlay is $700,000.

Sure, but cap is also an expiring asset that is worthless at the end of each season.

Maybe ANA throws 1x12M at Malkin, but otherwise what are their 1 year/short term options?

Max Domi - reclamation? is he a good fit? He only garnered a B/C level NCAA prospect at last TDL
Chris Tierney - a bit of reclamation, might need to go 2 yrs
Radulov - not saying he's bad in the room, but do you want to put him in your room?
Subban - ditto, and he could probably get term
Kessel - wasn't even moved at this TDL for whatever reason
Stastny - ditto
Edler - he'd be a really good idea if they can get him, but he seems to highly value NMC (ie. maybe not TDL return)
Marc Staal - could be similar to above but he's never left the East
Stralman - need LHD more...

I could see them going back to DesLauriers or maybe Raffl, but that's not getting them to the floor. Same thing for a Stepan/Brassard/Sutter.

They could sign their RFAs for $10M (probably generous) and still be $10M under the floor with like 5 spots to fill.


Of course other teams might make better offers to take bad AAVs, but there are plenty of potential recipients (DET, BUF, ARI, CBJ, SEA) that will likely suppress the reward for doing so. Lucic and Monahan are actually decent bang for your buck and will likely fetch better returns at TDL than most of the above.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, thanks tips. I know. But Bishop has had ongoing joint issues. And insurers would normally balk at insuring him. So even if the last injury was unrelated, that wouldn’t have factored in the decision.

And Bishop’s injury first arose in 2019, and was diagnosed as degenerative then.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...bres-1.6485344

Yet, Buffalo has indicated that they are only responsible for paying $700,000, with the rest covered by insurance.

I'm not sure why 2019 is relevant, as his contract would have been signed before then.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Yet, Buffalo has indicated that they are only responsible for paying $700,000, with the rest covered by insurance.

I'm not sure why 2019 is relevant, as his contract would have been signed before then.

Because you buy insurance every year.

EDIT: That’s probably wrong - the contract is what is likely insured. Still surprising since he’s had LBI and back injuries every year since 2014.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

….and Tre already said Monahan is something like 6 weeks ahead of where where he was last injury/offseason therefore expect him to play.

They'll give him a shot on the 2nd line to start next season and if he's truly 100%, I actually think he'll be fine. Don't think the Flames are against moving him but he's at the very bottom of the list if players to move to make cap space for management as I feel like they really, really appreciate him.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by activeStick

They'll give him a shot on the 2nd line to start next season and if he's truly 100%, I actually think he'll be fine. Don't think the Flames are against moving him but he's at the very bottom of the list if players to move to make cap space for management as I feel like they really, really appreciate him.

If anything he’s due for a pay cut this off-season, and he will do anything and everything for this club. So, yeah… I’d be shocked If he was moved.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

LTIR doesn't kick in until you're actually over the cap limit.


BUF has 15 players signed and only 46.1M cap hit (including 5.7M from Hodgson buyout and Bishop).

15M is Skinner and Okposo. So 25M for the other 13 players.


I wonder if they try to do another 1 yr deal with someone like they did with Hall (and likely trade them at TDL). Not exactly sure who would fit that bill...$8M for MAF? Maybe Max Domi is a guy who needs to try to rebuild his value?

Just to add to this, it was also my understanding that players on LTIR still counted towards the cap, but teams were allowed to exceed the cap by the amount of the LTIR. So it would definitely count towards reaching the floor.

So, in this example, if Bishop's cap hit was $5 million, teams would be allowed to exceed the cap by $5 million. The $5 million still count towards the cap.

Another loophole that needs to be closed.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

LTIR doesn't kick in until you're actually over the cap limit.


BUF has 15 players signed and only 46.1M cap hit (including 5.7M from Hodgson buyout and Bishop).

15M is Skinner and Okposo. So 25M for the other 13 players.


I wonder if they try to do another 1 yr deal with someone like they did with Hall (and likely trade them at TDL). Not exactly sure who would fit that bill...$8M for MAF? Maybe Max Domi is a guy who needs to try to rebuild his value?

It’s crazy how far below the floor they are. So while other players aren’t the free cap amounts that Bishop is, they will need to do some deals and the less term (i.e. Monahan/Lucic/etc) the better. Lucic would be perfect assuming he’d waive, because he is not paid that much cash compared to his hit. Especially if his bonus is paid first.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by blankall

Just to add to this, it was also my understanding that players on LTIR still counted towards the cap, but teams were allowed to exceed the cap by the amount of the LTIR. So it would definitely count towards reaching the floor.

So, in this example, if Bishop's cap hit was $5 million, teams would be allowed to exceed the cap by $5 million. The $5 million still count towards the cap.

Another loophole that needs to be closed.

You are generally correct, but it gets more complicated when it comes to exceeding the cap as you first have to calculate Accruable Cap Space Limit and salary relief pools

https://www.capfriendly.com/ltir-faq#acsl


So my general sense is that you get more relief if you are really close to the cap before LTIR than if you have more space - though if you have space you may benefit more from accruals. I'm not quite sure if it would correct to say that having a big injury could piss away most/all of the space a team accrued?

[Erick Estrada]

Lost of insurance talke but I'm still really surprised that all it took was a 7th round pick to unload this contract. You would think the Stars would have more incentive to move the contract out and it's not like the Sabres were competing with other teams to take on the salary dump.