The Blueprint: Building A Contender

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

1) Proven Coach. Yes Brad, you're going to have to go for the "flashy" option for a change. It's worth it.

2) Give up some of our winger talent to acquire multiple center prospects. Center-out is the new philosophy.

3) Let the current kids develop with opportunities in every situation, even if there are growing pains. That means giving guys like Kylington more of a look over guys like Stone. Otherwise how do we know what we have? Depth vets aren't going to improve.

4) No more albatross free agency signings, with the exception of a top line talent like Hall. No 5+ MM for any one slotting into the middle six. Keep it to cheap periphery adds. They're much more likely to play to their value.

5) Patience. Savvy hockey trades a la Hamilton/Lindholm are good, sending firsts for Hamonics is bad. Trade to get younger if you do, only splurge for big name vets when you're established as a competitive playoff team.

6) Try to entice a goalie of the ilk of Markstrom/Bishop/Lehner when possible. There will be good ones available. We have to put our chips in for that kind of tender, they can bring it into their mid thirties in a lot of cases.

7) Be patient and hang on to your high draft picks for a few consecutive years. Add picks wherever possible in this time.

8) Eventually, become actually, formidably, good.

2) Trade Lindholm RW for Lindholm C. Trade Bennett RW for Bennett C. Trade Dube RW for Dube C

[Classic_Sniper]

I was just thinking how funny the NHL is; because of the nature of the game itself and also with the way the league calls the game so differently in the regular season vs the playoffs, you basically have 3 types of players.


1) Players who can get you TO the playoffs (i.e. Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Mark Giordano and etc.):

These guys, while still important, can get you there, but shouldn’t be the ones you count on to get you through which leads me to my second point.


2) Players who can get you THROUGH the playoffs ( i.e. Milan Lucic, Sam Bennett and etc.):

Sam Bennett has proven that he can be there when it counts in the playoffs, but has yet to display the same type of prowess in the regular season. Most likely because you can’t play playoff Sam Bennett style hockey 82 games a season where you’re landing 8 hits a game. You’d probably spend 50% of the season on the infirmary.


3) Players who can do BOTH (i.e. Mackinnon, O’Reilly, Hedman, Crosby, Malkin, Stone and etc.).

If I’m Treliving and co, I’m asking myself, does this team have enough guys who can do both? Guys who can produce when games open up in the regular season as well as when things tighten up in the regular season? I think right now, the current roster is made up of guys who can get the team to the playoffs, but I’m not sure most of them are good enough to get the team through. But then, I’m not sure you want to build a team with just playoff players anyway or you end up like the LA Kings where you can go on a deep run in the postseason, but may have a hard time just making it to the dance every year.


So I don’t know if it’s a philosophical change that has to be made by the front office or whether they know this already. But there are teams in this league that have seemingly figured out this formula aka the Bruins, the Golden Knights, the Lightning and etc. So it’s time for the Flames brass to make it happen soon or we clean house with guys who can definitely make it happen.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I was just thinking how funny the NHL is; because of the nature of the game itself and also with the way the league calls the game so differently in the regular season vs the playoffs, you basically have 3 types of players.


1) Players who can get you TO the playoffs (i.e. Johnny Gaudreau, Sean Monahan, Mark Giordano and etc.):

These guys, while still important, can get you there, but shouldn’t be the ones you count on to get you through which leads me to my second point.


2) Players who can get you THROUGH the playoffs ( i.e. Milan Lucic, Sam Bennett and etc.):

Sam Bennett has proven that he can be there when it counts in the playoffs, but has yet to display the same type of prowess in the regular season. Most likely because you can’t play playoff Sam Bennett style hockey 82 games a season where you’re landing 8 hits a game. You’d probably spend 50% of the season on the infirmary.


3) Players who can do BOTH (i.e. Mackinnon, O’Reilly, Hedman, Crosby, Malkin, Stone and etc.).

If I’m Treliving and co, I’m asking myself, does this team have enough guys who can do both? Guys who can produce when games open up in the regular season as well as when things tighten up in the regular season? I think right now, the current roster is made up of guys who can get the team to the playoffs, but I’m not sure most of them are good enough to get the team through. But then, I’m not sure you want to build a team with just playoff players anyway or you end up like the LA Kings where you can go on a deep run in the postseason, but may have a hard time just making it to the dance every year.


So I don’t know if it’s a philosophical change that has to be made by the front office or whether they know this already. But there are teams in this league that have seemingly figured out this formula aka the Bruins, the Golden Knights, the Lightning and etc. So it’s time for the Flames brass to make it happen soon or we clean house with guys who can definitely make it happen.

Somehow you have to avoid getting trapped into loving a player that has good personal stats and looks great but doesn't actually deliver any winning teams.

You have Gio listed as a player that can get you to the playoffs. History does not show that at all.

In his 13 NHL seasons Gio has played in 4 playoff rounds. That is counting this year where the season got messed up and the Flames were absolutely a bubble team that may not have made it had the season not been interrupted.

The Flames have been in 6 playoff seasons with Gio on the team, 2 where he did not play in the playoffs.

He has been a core player for the Flames since 2009-10. 11 seasons. The Flames made the playoffs 4 of those seasons with him playing in 3 playoffs.


In 2014-15 when the Flames made the playoffs without him they were in a tie with LA for 7/8 in the conference with Min 1 pt behind and having a game in hand. after Gio was hurt it was Brodie, Wideman and Russell that got the Flames into the Playoffs that year.

There has been 1 team with Gio in the core that comfortably made the playoffs.

Great player, nice guy but somehow he has become the best player on bad teams. The Flames spent close to the cap over Gio's 11 year as core ( 7 years as best player) his team's winning records are no where what any great player should be. Only guy the come close is Taylor Hall.

Flames need to gracefully end the Gio era.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Build down the middle. Stockpile centres and goalies.

Don’t trade 1st and 2nd round picks if you aren’t entering the season as a Top-5 Cup Contender.

Don’t spend real assets to bolster the blue line.

Don’t sign anyone July 1. Ever. You can get the same production or better from PTOs signed on the eve of the regular season. Not one person in this city has a bad thing to say about Kris Versteeg.

Hire a real coach. We had a real coach for two seasons this century- we went to the Finals and won the division. May be something to that.

So exact opposite of what Brad Treiliving has done?
Yet the majority on this board want him to keep at it...

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Somehow you have to avoid getting trapped into loving a player that has good personal stats and looks great but doesn't actually deliver any winning teams.

You have Gio listed as a player that can get you to the playoffs. History does not show that at all.

In his 13 NHL seasons Gio has played in 4 playoff rounds. That is counting this year where the season got messed up and the Flames were absolutely a bubble team that may not have made it had the season not been interrupted.

The Flames have been in 6 playoff seasons with Gio on the team, 2 where he did not play in the playoffs.

He has been a core player for the Flames since 2009-10. 11 seasons. The Flames made the playoffs 4 of those seasons with him playing in 3 playoffs.


In 2014-15 when the Flames made the playoffs without him they were in a tie with LA for 7/8 in the conference with Min 1 pt behind and having a game in hand. after Gio was hurt it was Brodie, Wideman and Russell that got the Flames into the Playoffs that year.

There has been 1 team with Gio in the core that comfortably made the playoffs.

Great player, nice guy but somehow he has become the best player on bad teams. The Flames spent close to the cap over Gio's 11 year as core ( 7 years as best player) his team's winning records are no where what any great player should be. Only guy the come close is Taylor Hall.

Flames need to gracefully end the Gio era.

I completely disagree, I think Gio helps this team tremendously especially in the regular season. I don’t the Flames are even a playoff team without him. He won the Norris last season for crying out loud and it resulted in a 50 win season.

Here’s what I will say about his struggles though. Gio’s greatest strength is his work ethic which is second to none. In the regular season, his work, is his advantage. But in the playoffs, everyone works as hard as Gio does, so his advantage in my opinion is gone. He’s also undersized for his position and his skating ability is only average, so against quicker or heavier teams, he’ll struggle.

But does that mean you need to rid yourself of him? No, I just think Treliving needs to insulate him with more help. Bumping him down to the second pair would be the best move here. I think Gio can still help you win, his leadership and his work is exemplary. The worst thing Treliving can do is rid himself of guys who can help you get to the playoffs with playoff only guys and then this team misses the playoffs completely. That’s a very realistic possibility and Treliving has to avoid that at all costs.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I completely disagree, I think Gio helps this team tremendously especially in the regular season. I don’t the Flames are even a playoff team without him. He won the Norris last season for crying out loud and it resulted in a 50 win season.

Here’s what I will say about his struggles though. Gio’s greatest strength is his work ethic which is second to none. In the regular season, his work, is his advantage. But in the playoffs, everyone works as hard as Gio does, so his advantage in my opinion is gone. He’s also undersized for his position and his skating ability is only average, so against quicker or heavier teams, he’ll struggle.

But does that mean you need to rid yourself of him? No, I just think Treliving needs to insulate him with more help. Bumping him down to the second pair would be the best move here. I think Gio can still help you win, his leadership and his work is exemplary. The worst thing Treliving can do is rid himself of guys who can help you get to the playoffs with playoff only guys and then this team misses the playoffs completely. That’s a very realistic possibility and Treliving has to avoid that at all costs.

1) The Flames are not a playoff team. There has been 1 year of the 11 that Gio has been in the core that the Flames were a playoff team.

The other times they were a bubble team that were a coin toss to make the playoffs.

Hard to remember that far back but after the 2004 run and the 2005 lock out the Flames were a playoff team. They were not worried about the wild card spots. That what was expected after 2018-19 and it ended with them being .001 winning pct margin for being in 8th place when the season ended.

2) First time ever I heard the Gio is not an excellent skater.


3) So if a team is quick or a team is heavy then Gio is over matched??? If only there were playoff teams that were slow and small.

[Regorium]

Kind of a "hot take", but I think the blueprint is that you have to basically build assets until you get a true superstar. While on the hunt for this elusive superstar, you do need the competent management identified in the OP to keep building assets, drafting/developing well, not signing horrible UFAs and not throwing 12M RFA contracts out like they're candy.

I think once you get your superstar, then the rest starts to fall into place. Sometimes this takes a long time (ie. Phoenix or Buffalo), or sometimes you suddenly get a breakout superstar. But you need to have as many shots as possible at these types of players to really build a long term contender. Whether you want to try to find a gem in the rough in the latter part of the first round (like a Getzlaf or Barzal) or find ways to draft higher, I don't think anything else matters until you find the singular core piece that can anchor the entire roster.

I'll be honest, I was definitely rooting for losses in the play-in based on my philosophy and my current belief that we don't have a superstar (tbf others may disagree). 12.5% chance at #1 and a guaranteed pick in the low teens is way better than a play-in victory into a high teens pick in terms of building a long term contender with the Flames' current state.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

1) The Flames are not a playoff team. There has been 1 year of the 11 that Gio has been in the core that the Flames were a playoff team.

The other times they were a bubble team that were a coin toss to make the playoffs.

Hard to remember that far back but after the 2004 run and the 2005 lock out the Flames were a playoff team. They were not worried about the wild card spots. That what was expected after 2018-19 and it ended with them being .001 winning pct margin for being in 8th place when the season ended.

2) First time ever I heard the Gio is not an excellent skater.


3) So if a team is quick or a team is heavy then Gio is over matched??? If only there were playoff teams that were slow and small.

Your point is very confusing to me. You either make the playoffs or you don’t. Mark Giordano even if he didn’t participate in the 2015 playoffs, his performance early in the season helped the team accumulate enough points to make it to the dance. Making the playoffs in the regular season is a points race and Mark Giordano helps this team achieve that first goal. Even if he doesn’t slot as a top pairing guy anymore, he’s still a quality top 4 defenseman you don’t want to lose.

Your second point is probably the most bewildering. Are you implying Mark Giordano is an excellent skater? Gio is an average skater, possibly even below average, he just makes up for it with his conditioning and putting 100% effort into his skating. There’s a reason why he went undrafted. But thankfully he has elite hockey iq and work ethic which probably saved his career.

Lastly, the entire Flames roster is either too slow or too small. That’s why Colorado wiped the floor with them last season and why Dallas dominated the majority of the play in their series.

[GioforPM]

I would say that the Flames are both too slow and too small. Their top skill guys are all average to below average skaters. Only Dube and maybe Mangiapane are good skaters up front. Gio was once a pretty good skater but not any more. That’s age for you.

The good teams have outside speed and can put Dmen on their heels. Dube has done it from time to time, but the others just can’t - this is why Gaudreau button hooks so much or is forced to take that outside shot. JG used to be able to back people off because they thought he could go around. But they’ve figured out that he can’t.

This is a reason I think Hall might be a better one dimensional winger going forward than Johnny.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

So exact opposite of what Brad Treiliving has done?
Yet the majority on this board want him to keep at it...

I'm pretty sure GreenLantern2814 voted to have Treliving fired.

And I also think this "majority" is assuming that Treliving will learn from these mistakes.

Even though he has made mistakes in goaltending acquisitions about 7 times in a row.

[troutman]

A Canadian team has not won the Stanley Cup in 27 years. A generation ago. Before many of you were born. This is beyond mere coincidence. A blueprint has to account for this disadvantage.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by troutman

A Canadian team has not won the Stanley Cup in 27 years. A generation ago. Before many of you were born. This is beyond mere coincidence. A blueprint has to account for this disadvantage.

So what has handicapped Canadian teams? In the cases of Edmonton, Winnipeg, and to a lesser extent Ottawa and Calgary, these are not desirable destinations for star players and top free agents. On the other hand, lots of players seem to want to play in Toronto and Vancouver. So desirability of the city doesn't explain all of it.

Is it impatience? Looking at the way teams have been constructed, that seems part of it. Canadian owners don't have the patience for rebuilds. Maybe because they don't think the fans will tolerate rebuilds. But why would loyal fanbases in markets that routinely sell out be more averse to rebuilds than American markets with much shallower and fragile support?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

So what has handicapped Canadian teams? In the cases of Edmonton, Winnipeg, and to a lesser extent Ottawa and Calgary, these are not desirable destinations for star players and top free agents. On the other hand, lots of players seem to want to play in Toronto and Vancouver. So desirability of the city doesn't explain all of it.

Is it impatience? Looking at the way teams have been constructed, that seems part of it. Canadian owners don't have the patience for rebuilds. Maybe because they don't think the fans will tolerate rebuilds. But why would loyal fanbases in markets that routinely sell out be more averse to rebuilds than American markets with much shallower and fragile support?

Impatience is definitely one of the big issues. I also think Canadian fans are too difficult on their star players who play roughly 1/3 of the game, yet it always falls on just their shoulders; that’s probably why Canadian teams are always found on No Trade lists.

History has shown that teams built through the draft is the best way to win it all. Winnipeg was probably the closest but their defense fell apart at the wrong time. Ottawa seems to build well through the draft as well but their owner Eugene Melnyk has interfered way too often.


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