Canada's University System

[#-3]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's managers and HR. At some point it switched that some places only hired people with degrees. So more people had to go get them. Then there are too many of them so there needs to be a new bar. Again, my example in Accounting. B.Comm to get entry level, CPA to go higher. I can tell you, it doesn't take 6-7 years of education of a CPA to review financial statements.

This is pretty much right,

Degrees/credentials have become a very inefficient filter for the hiring process where personal recommendations, and career positions have broken down. Too many candidates, no good way of sorting them so we just throw out everyone who isn't categorically over qualified for the level of work they are doing, so people become over qualified, so people don't earn enough to pay off the expenses related to qualification, so people are unhappy with their life and ability to earn.

The real question becomes, what is an efficient filter that describes what a company really wants / needs, and how do you effectively implement it without falling into implicit bias traps. Really it's one of the great unanswered organizational behavior problems to be solved, and the real problem from my experience is that I doubt this is the question hiring managers are asking themselves.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Presumably over concern that it hurt the esteem of kids who didn’t make the list. Don’t kids already know who their high-achieving classmates are? And now more and more boards in Canada are doing away with streaming and honours programs altogether.

The knots educators tie themselves into to pretend there isn’t a competitive element to education is embarrassing.

Well we can't have the kids feeling bad that other kids are smarter than they are. Society is also about fairness and inclusion.

In fact we should do away with grades completely.

As long as you are a participant in class, that should be good enough, no?

/s

[Azure]

As far as smart people go, my dad never got past grade 8 and he is the smartest person I know.

His writing skills are terrible, and he has had to fight for all the other skills he has gotten, but his math is university level, as are many of his other technical skills.

But then again, if you take someone who has to work 10x harder to figure everything out, and compare him to some pampered kid who was told how special he is, what kind of results are we expecting?

Where exactly is hard work coming into play here? Because like my dad, all the other people I know who are successful have one common theme to their life. They work hard, focus and apply themselves each day to become better at their trade, craft, profession, etc.

This does not seem to be a skill being taught in school anymore. Even if you are not going to be a doctor or any other high level degree, why sell yourself short on the degree / job / career you are going for? Trades, humanities, STEM, doesn't matter. Kids should be taught that hard work in ANY of these fields is essential to success.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Azure

his math is university level, .

Literally? Like calculus/linear algebra? Because that is amazing.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Literally? Like calculus/linear algebra? Because that is amazing.

Yes.

My sister has a BSc in Mathematics, and my dad has no issue with most of the concepts / work. He does lack in some of the theory though, and isn't as well practiced in the actual work, so it takes him much longer to figure stuff out, but has no issue following along with stuff that is completely out of my league. And I have high school level calculus / linear algebra.

I know this isn't normal, nor to be expected, but it is a testament to how far someone can get on hard work and consistency in learning & improvement.

I feel if the same attitude is carried into any profession, the person will be successful. Trades, STEM, humanities, etc, etc.

I also am not seeing this in my field or industry. It is a struggle to find people who have this outlook, but easy to find people who are over educated.

Many companies in my industry are shifting away from educated on paper, and instead are looking for adept people with the right attitude, plus the willingness to improve and keep learning. If proper mentorship and training is provided, you will find lifers.

I work in a CAD / Engineering / Manufacturing field.

[Mr.Coffee]

I agree with your point about hard work. Our society has gotten a bit soft generally. Our standard of living has been tops in the world and I think it’s natural / human nature that people generally take their foot off the gas, like NHLers that finally get that huge payday- you usually see a steep work ethic drop off once they’ve made it.

You will always have some in society that work hard, and some that don’t though. It’s also interesting that generally colder nations have a higher work ethic than warmer ones (not hard or fast, but generally based on GDP / production metrics).

[Mr.Coffee]

What is the purpose of university?

Is it to teach people, or is it to do research? Both of these have tremendous value and I would imagine it’s a tough balance to strike.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yes.

My sister has a BSc in Mathematics, and my dad has no issue with most of the concepts / work. He does lack in some of the theory though, and isn't as well practiced in the actual work, so it takes him much longer to figure stuff out, but has no issue following along with stuff that is completely out of my league. And I have high school level calculus / linear algebra.

I know this isn't normal, nor to be expected, but it is a testament to how far someone can get on hard work and consistency in learning & improvement.

I feel if the same attitude is carried into any profession, the person will be successful. Trades, STEM, humanities, etc, etc.

I also am not seeing this in my field or industry. It is a struggle to find people who have this outlook, but easy to find people who are over educated.

Many companies in my industry are shifting away from educated on paper, and instead are looking for adept people with the right attitude, plus the willingness to improve and keep learning. If proper mentorship and training is provided, you will find lifers.

I work in a CAD / Engineering / Manufacturing field.

That's really cool.

I have zero employees, but if I was hiring I've always thought it would make sense to hire for attitude/work ethic and teach needed technical skills. Obviously that wouldn't work everywhere (eg surgeon) but I bet many/most employers would be better off.

[Nancy]

nvm

[Azure]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

That's really cool.

I have zero employees, but if I was hiring I've always thought it would make sense to hire for attitude/work ethic and teach needed technical skills. Obviously that wouldn't work everywhere (eg surgeon) but I bet many/most employers would be better off.

For me, if I'm looking for someone to fill a certain position, I will look for competency, work ethic & attitude, with education level coming after that.

If someone needs more training & education to do a job, but has the work ethic and attitude required, to me that is a winner. You can't teach work ethic, but you can absolutely teach skills.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by blankall

That is so absurd. Is a student who only has an 88% average in high school really not capable of excelling in a science field? Marks are pretty meaningless beyond a certain threshold.

This also rewards students for taking fluff classes. My school offered an AP program. You were definitely not getting a 98% average in those classes, and all the students in the class were the top students so curving wasn't going to help you.

Yeah mate I don't disagree, I was just telling you my daughter's experience (she is current 1st yr).

There is no way I would have gotten into the program I graduated in if I had to get in now with my HS marks from then.

AP, yeah I'm not sure I see the value in AP with the current approach to things. Your Transcripts don't say AP, so why take them?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by #-3

This is pretty much right,

Degrees/credentials have become a very inefficient filter for the hiring process where personal recommendations, and career positions have broken down. Too many candidates, no good way of sorting them so we just throw out everyone who isn't categorically over qualified for the level of work they are doing, so people become over qualified, so people don't earn enough to pay off the expenses related to qualification, so people are unhappy with their life and ability to earn.

The real question becomes, what is an efficient filter that describes what a company really wants / needs, and how do you effectively implement it without falling into implicit bias traps. Really it's one of the great unanswered organizational behavior problems to be solved, and the real problem from my experience is that I doubt this is the question hiring managers are asking themselves.

I think startups are figuring how this out. Hiring on skill and not degrees. Then there is the sort of underground freelancer market. People getting paid for tasks.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

Standardized testing like SATs is still a test of parental means to some degree.

Standardized texting of things that are taught in high school (ie math/English diploma exams) is more fair than the SATs, which are a specific type of skill that isn't taught at all on school.

[Geraldsh]

Standardized tests like SAT are not really what I had in mind, each university should have an entrance exam that proves an interest or aptitude in their particular field.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

Standardized tests like SAT are not really what I had in mind, each university should have an entrance exam that proves an interest or aptitude in their particular field.

Universities don’t really have the means or expertise to build this kind of testing. It’s a huge system of testing and development that goes into creating the least biased tests possible. It also would mean anyone applying to multiple universities would need to take multiple tests.

So in the end you would end up with SAT/MCAT/LSAT type tests.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I think startups are figuring how this out. Hiring on skill and not degrees. Then there is the sort of underground freelancer market. People getting paid for tasks.

Ya,

My prospective could be very coloured by working the old fashioned way, I got a job with a fairly large employer (~5000 people North America Wide - 200 in Alberta) in my early 20s, still with them in my late 30s. I've advanced far enough that I am champing at the bit for more while there just isn't really more responsibility available to me at this time in Alberta without displacing people who just aren't leaving any time soon, yet I feel I am under qualified to find the same level of work elsewhere, let alone better work, because a huge reason I am at the level I am at is internal advancement.

I'm pretty knowledgeable and skilled within my field, but have never found a way to directly leverage skills into a paycheque, I've always applied those skills in the context of a salary I was already receiving. I can see how others who have made a career selling their skills could have a different experience with hiring.

Still think usually when I see degree required, the HR managers are using an ineffective filter because they have no other ideas about how to filter.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Azure

As far as smart people go, my dad never got past grade 8 and he is the smartest person I know.

His writing skills are terrible, and he has had to fight for all the other skills he has gotten, but his math is university level, as are many of his other technical skills.

But then again, if you take someone who has to work 10x harder to figure everything out, and compare him to some pampered kid who was told how special he is, what kind of results are we expecting?

Where exactly is hard work coming into play here? Because like my dad, all the other people I know who are successful have one common theme to their life. They work hard, focus and apply themselves each day to become better at their trade, craft, profession, etc.

This does not seem to be a skill being taught in school anymore. Even if you are not going to be a doctor or any other high level degree, why sell yourself short on the degree / job / career you are going for? Trades, humanities, STEM, doesn't matter. Kids should be taught that hard work in ANY of these fields is essential to success.

The value of tenacity is critical

Success is not downloaded

Nor is it streamed

[CliffFletcher]

When a company is recruiting for a position, how can they screen the dozens of applicants for tenacity and hard work? Make the application process so onerous that most of the candidates give up out of frustration?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

When a company is recruiting for a position, how can they screen the dozens of applicants for tenacity and hard work? Make the application process so onerous that most of the candidates give up out of frustration?

Lately, we have been giving applicants homework to do. A mini project or problem solving task or a coding puzzle, etc. This will help suss up some skills but it won't however demonstrate that someone is a hard worker over a long period of time.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

When a company is recruiting for a position, how can they screen the dozens of applicants for tenacity and hard work? Make the application process so onerous that most of the candidates give up out of frustration?

Have you not heard of 4,5, 6 etc... interviews for top positions?